Author Topic: Hello from London! And forum rules?  (Read 1442 times)

WildWanderer

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Hello from London! And forum rules?
« on: 21:01:49, 17/06/21 »

Hi all!

 
Long time lurker, but only recently been motivated to create an account.

 
Based in West London, done all the big stuff (Snowdon/Scafell/Ben Nevis - in the two weeks of last summer!) but typically end up a lot closer to home, exploring the fringes of Surrey. Typically I'll go on two or three hikes a month, and am more than happy to make suggestions to anyone who's wondering where the good places are to go in this neck of the woods!

 
My main reason for finally creating an account was to hopefully tap into some of the knowledge and experience here, allow me to explain. I've always been surprised by the lack of decent apps for exploring new places -- Google Maps helps to find some, but is very fiddly to work out exactly what places are the most interesting to see (cue a very disappointing trip where I took a group to see the Men an Tol in Cornwall, dragging them away from their galleries in St Ives). So, as a lockdown project I took on, I started writing an Android app for generating walking routes of any length -- that is, picking the most interesting places within a reasonable walking distance from your start point. I was wondering whether (assuming it's compliant with the forum rules), I might be able to get your feedback on it

 
If this would be allowable, I'll create a separate thread somewhere!

 
Hope to see you out soon!

 
~ J
Developer of Wander [nofollow] Android App [nofollow]

richardh1905

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Re: Hello from London! And forum rules?
« Reply #1 on: 08:12:05, 18/06/21 »
Welcome to the forum, WildWanderer. Interesting app, but I tend to look at paper maps and occasionally a guide book (SMC guides in particular).


PS - there's plenty more 'Big Stuff' out there - my view is that sometimes people have to get the likes of Ben Nevis out of their system before they can really start enjoying the mountains.


PPS - My wife and I visited Men an Tol on our honeymoon, and thought it a magical spot. And therein lies a problem for your app - people have differing opinions as to what is 'interesting to see'.
WildAboutWalking - Join me on my walks through the wilder parts of Britain

WildWanderer

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Re: Hello from London! And forum rules?
« Reply #2 on: 13:07:42, 19/06/21 »
Hello Richard!

Paper maps are indeed a valuable tool -- and I'd never suggest that I could make something comparable to a specialized guidebook. The first-hand detail on them is invaluable and if I had a choice for a serious walk I would use those tools. That said, my motivation is primarily that a lot of the time where I end up walking, I don't necessarily pick a destination -- I just go for a walk (of some arbitrary length). There's some beauty in self-determinism, almost picking your route at random, for example for a casual walk around a common or wood (of course, there are places where I'd recommend this, and places where I would not, mountain ranges generally tending towards the latter!).

Regarding your point about different people finding different things interesting, there are options to filter based on your personal preferences, and I'd be interested to hear if you think any categories or places are missing! I'll create a post separately for the app now -- though it seems I'm not yet able to post external links, I'll investigate that and keep you posted!
Developer of Wander [nofollow] Android App [nofollow]

BuzyG

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Re: Hello from London! And forum rules?
« Reply #3 on: 18:36:14, 22/06/21 »
Welcome to the forum Wild wanderer.  It's all about the right tagging and filtering as you know doubt realise.  Tags like Neolithic site, Tin industry, are essential for an area like Cornwall, for example.


Personally, much as I enjoy art, I would take a quite lunch in the mizzle at Men an Toll any day.  O0

NayyanBeffie

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Re: Hello from London! And forum rules?
« Reply #4 on: 22:38:52, 22/06/21 »
Hi everyone.  :)  I am also new here and have some questions in mind. Please also tell me how I can improve my profile. Like how I can upload avatar etc.

barewirewalker

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Re: Hello from London! And forum rules?
« Reply #5 on: 10:48:23, 23/06/21 »
To do anything really new I think you are going to come up with some creative thinking on walk design. Back on the old ramblers forum, someone started a topic asking to discuss this and it lacked any useful contribution. If you were to do a search here I think you will find a topic asking the discuss the very subject again with scant contribution.

I have wondered why, clearly from the little knowledge of the countryside the route planners for such publications as Country Walking have, there is no serious study into the points that make a good route. This is due to lack of criticism, in any other art form, if you publish you receive the judgment of your audience, that is except walking.
Why should we walk a particular walk clockwise or anti-clockwise might be a start, yet that may depend on the time of day you intend to set out. Why do local authorities shy away from recommending linear walks using public transport; seemple, they lack the confidence that the service might not be there to use. What pleasures are inherent in your route, we struggle to get beyond reaching the top of a hill and seeing a good view, but a walk is a proven way of beating poor mental health.

Just a few topics that should come under the general study of creating routes, of course, I am one of a few, I get criticized because I believe that the occupiers of our countryside are incompetent in allowing us to design routes that could bring in a few of these factors and I know that I am just learning.
BWW
Their Land is in Our Country.

WildWanderer

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Re: Hello from London! And forum rules?
« Reply #6 on: 18:09:25, 23/06/21 »
Welcome to the forum Wild wanderer.  It's all about the right tagging and filtering as you know doubt realise.  Tags like Neolithic site, Tin industry, are essential for an area like Cornwall, for example.


Personally, much as I enjoy art, I would take a quite lunch in the mizzle at Men an Toll any day.  O0


I've not got quite that level of tagging yet, categories include cultural and historical sites and museums for example, but more specific area-specific tags (i.e. it makes less sense to have tin industry tags in Scotland (!)). One of the data sources I'm using is OpenStreetMap, so I'm also somewhat restricted by their tags, I'll take a look at what data I can use regarding more specific sites  O0


To do anything really new I think you are going to come up with some creative thinking on walk design. Back on the old ramblers forum, someone started a topic asking to discuss this and it lacked any useful contribution. If you were to do a search here I think you will find a topic asking the discuss the very subject again with scant contribution.

I have wondered why, clearly from the little knowledge of the countryside the route planners for such publications as Country Walking have, there is no serious study into the points that make a good route. This is due to lack of criticism, in any other art form, if you publish you receive the judgment of your audience, that is except walking.
Why should we walk a particular walk clockwise or anti-clockwise might be a start, yet that may depend on the time of day you intend to set out. Why do local authorities shy away from recommending linear walks using public transport; seemple, they lack the confidence that the service might not be there to use. What pleasures are inherent in your route, we struggle to get beyond reaching the top of a hill and seeing a good view, but a walk is a proven way of beating poor mental health.

Just a few topics that should come under the general study of creating routes, of course, I am one of a few, I get criticized because I believe that the occupiers of our countryside are incompetent in allowing us to design routes that could bring in a few of these factors and I know that I am just learning.



The innovative thinking on walk design at the moment is the 'backwards planning', aka setting a length, and getting suggestions on what places you could visit in that time period. I'm definitely looking into providing more guidance for walks specifically (aka what particular routing to take), but that's a complex topic unto itself! But definitely looking at maximising time travelling along paths (rather than roads!)


Certainly I agree with you that pre-set 'prescribed' walks are restrictive, oft busy, and oft not suitable for the case in point. Sure, it might take you to the key points, but you can miss so much by staying 'on the beaten track' per se (not that I'm advocating rambling through someone's field -- unless you're in Scotland or somewhere with suitably amicable laws), but certainly travelling the path less frequently trodden is going to give a different perspective. I can't promise that the app in its current state offers such functionality, but if it's something you'd like, I can certainly investigate adding it!


Hi everyone.  :)  I am also new here and have some questions in mind. Please also tell me how I can improve my profile. Like how I can upload avatar etc.


Hey Naayyan! I believe there is documentation on this by 'Googling' 'SMF Edit Profile' (SMF being the forum software used here)


I've not managed to get through to the admin (Chris?) yet, but you can find some details about the app, and a link to download at wanderapp.org (note: not affiliated with this site at all). Let me know what you think!
Developer of Wander [nofollow] Android App [nofollow]

barewirewalker

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Re: Hello from London! And forum rules?
« Reply #7 on: 10:27:44, 24/06/21 »
I am a little unclear what this app hopes to achieve. Bear with me, I have not used walk guides for many years and their relevance to walking compared to rock climbing guides bear no comparison. The OS map tells me where I am allowed to go, and holds most of the detail to inform me of what to expect. The Ramblers with their dependency on guided walks to collect membership as their inner core squandered their pre-war wealth and have failed to harness the power of the independent walker.


Take an example; the Breidden Hills on the Shropshire Welsh border. Most walks start at the Criggion Village Hall car park because most walkers are induced into climbing Rodneys Pillar. Otherwise, they start at Middletown, which splits a very interesting enclosed area of terrain. I have yet to hear anyone mention Kempster's hill that has some very interesting features. When I try to use terms such as destinations, objectives, fixed assets and infrastructure I usually get blank off because as walkers we have no geographical knowledge common to the whole of our interest that brings together the hill walker, long-distance walker and daywalker being able to understand the finer points of the locations they walk through.

Kemptster's Hill, when linked to the Bytherig and the Melverley Bridge produces a fine range of linear routes that exploit little-used local public transport. If some of these assets were better understood, even the local authorities might wake up to the commercial potential of our access network.
BWW
Their Land is in Our Country.

BuzyG

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Re: Hello from London! And forum rules?
« Reply #8 on: 10:49:29, 24/06/21 »

I've not got quite that level of tagging yet, categories include cultural and historical sites and museums for example, but more specific area-specific tags (i.e. it makes less sense to have tin industry tags in Scotland (!)). One of the data sources I'm using is OpenStreetMap, so I'm also somewhat restricted by their tags, I'll take a look at what data I can use regarding more specific sites  O0



Herein lies the main problem with so may guide type Apps.   


I recently bought climbing guide a book, from st Ives publishing, written by a local.  It was purely because of the local knowledge that I spent my hard earn on it.  I can get all the basic generic stuff from many other sources these days. Unlike the previous post I think this can apply to walking and any other type of guide.


With a specialised local App that you can add a USP to.  Such as Tin Mines in Cornwall.  You create something people can't get easily from some where else. The choice is how specialised and how local. Too much compromise on making your App special enough to create interest and it is simply overwhelmed by the big boys all ready out there.  The whole Wainwright industry started from a blokes local knowledge and a guide book.


WildWanderer

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Re: Hello from London! And forum rules?
« Reply #9 on: 15:56:51, 11/07/21 »



Excuse my delayed response to this -- I spent a lovely week exploring York with a friend and just about managed to get everything back in order!
I am a little unclear what this app hopes to achieve. Bear with me, I have not used walk guides for many years and their relevance to walking compared to rock climbing guides bear no comparison. The OS map tells me where I am allowed to go, and holds most of the detail to inform me of what to expect. The Ramblers with their dependency on guided walks to collect membership as their inner core squandered their pre-war wealth and have failed to harness the power of the independent walker.


Take an example; the Breidden Hills on the Shropshire Welsh border. Most walks start at the Criggion Village Hall car park because most walkers are induced into climbing Rodneys Pillar. Otherwise, they start at Middletown, which splits a very interesting enclosed area of terrain. I have yet to hear anyone mention Kempster's hill that has some very interesting features. When I try to use terms such as destinations, objectives, fixed assets and infrastructure I usually get blank off because as walkers we have no geographical knowledge common to the whole of our interest that brings together the hill walker, long-distance walker and daywalker being able to understand the finer points of the locations they walk through.

Kemptster's Hill, when linked to the Bytherig and the Melverley Bridge produces a fine range of linear routes that exploit little-used local public transport. If some of these assets were better understood, even the local authorities might wake up to the commercial potential of our access network.



I would debate the point on OS maps advising you where you're allowed to go, based on a number of disputes I have had with angry landowners in the past  ;D . But for the most part, I agree with you


The way Wander works is by taking your current location as the start point for your walk -- that means even if you aren't in the most common start point for a walk, you might still get some suitable results suggested for you nearby. The intention is not to provide you with a cookie-cutter style walk which is marked with some very convenient red/yellow/green markers all the way round, the intention is to give you some waypoints to look forward to along the way. Currently it's far more primitive than the geographical knowledge you describe, there is potential to include those kind of considerations in the routing logic.


Regarding public transport, I've deliberately placed that kind of granularity out-of-scope for the app -- there are far more established alternatives that have these kind of things included


Herein lies the main problem with so may guide type Apps.   


I recently bought climbing guide a book, from st Ives publishing, written by a local.  It was purely because of the local knowledge that I spent my hard earn on it.  I can get all the basic generic stuff from many other sources these days. Unlike the previous post I think this can apply to walking and any other type of guide.


With a specialised local App that you can add a USP to.  Such as Tin Mines in Cornwall.  You create something people can't get easily from some where else. The choice is how specialised and how local. Too much compromise on making your App special enough to create interest and it is simply overwhelmed by the big boys all ready out there.  The whole Wainwright industry started from a blokes local knowledge and a guide book.



Indeed, the granularity of the app is something questionable, but that's not the intended USP of the app -- to my knowledge, there is nothing out there at the moment that does the same as Wander -- basing suggestions around your own personal capacity for a walk -- lots of navigation apps and the like allow you to plan your own route with waypoints and the like, but few advise you on where you'd like these waypoints to be.


Without going into too much detail, the app harnesses a lot of local datasources to gather the results, so there hopefully is the capacity to harness some similar knowledge there -- of course not to the standard of a bespoke guidebook, but for the more casual walker perhaps, or for areas without such guidebooks being available.


I've moved this discussion to a separate thread in the general space, as not to repurpose the welcome board for this -- more than happy to discuss more with you over there!

https://www.walkingforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=42409
Developer of Wander [nofollow] Android App [nofollow]

 

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