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Main Boards => News and Articles => Topic started by: gunwharfman on 09:25:13, 02/11/20

Title: Footspaths lost
Post by: gunwharfman on 09:25:13, 02/11/20
I saw this today -

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/nov/02/more-than-49000-miles-paths-lost-maps-england-wales
Title: Re: Footspaths lost
Post by: barewirewalker on 09:53:42, 02/11/20
It's one thing seeing it, another have some opinions about it. I have been trying to draw attention to it for the last 20 years, hoping that enough walkers would look at their maps and see how some of these routes could improve their access to their countryside.

I criticize the people who occupy the countryside and have been hiding their 20in per mile maps that have all these lost ways on them, since the 1950's, yet they will not own up to the Corruption of the Definitive Map. Then I get slagged off for calling landowners dishonest. :tickedoff:

Instead of suddenly waking up to it, how many years have been lost collecting evidence to build a cast iron economic and social case to put up against; "you can't walk there because it mine".

Seeemple  ::)
Title: Re: Footspaths lost
Post by: ninthace on 10:05:19, 02/11/20
I see that the most lost paths were found in Devon.  I did the top half of the county - feeling smug!
Title: Re: Footspaths lost
Post by: barewirewalker on 10:33:31, 02/11/20
I think that Devon was the county that that was expected to have the highest level, when Natural England was doing it's experimental Lostways Project.

Perhaps the county to have the greatest reason to recognition the Corruption of their Definitive Map. By coincidence Devon is the home county of Sarah Slade the CLA's advisor on Public Rights of Way.
Title: Re: Footspaths lost
Post by: Andies on 12:14:05, 02/11/20
What a surprise! I would have thought that anyone who has taken an interest in ROW must have expected this type of result, and as I have become more involved with matters over the years I have come to understand how the process of establishing the definitive map was marred by incompetence and worse still outright corruption. Will those who are a party to this corruption be brought to account?
I doubt they will be, but armed with this information surely the Ramblers can bring to bear some real influence on policy going forward. Stop the 2026 deadline and put forward a more reasonable system for getting these lost ways on the definitive map, rather than the existing system which seems so biased in favour of landowner interests, with the extremely high demands for evidence to substantiate the claimed route, when all common sense points to that routes historic existence.
The system has been corrupt from the start so why should we carry on with that system, it makes no sense, and certainly wouldn't be acceptable in other areas of society. We need a new body independent of the corrupting influence of local landowning classes who will give us the definitive map we were promised in 1949 O0
It will be interesting to see how this pans out and I really hope that something positive comes of it. I assume the Ramblers have a plan? Their website refers to asking for a five year delay to the 2026 deadline and looking to get "useful" routes added, which of course becomes increasingly judgemental. There is no mentioned of a fundamental revision to the system of getting ROW onto the definitive map :(
On a personal level I note that my county of Suffolk makes it in at number five in the list with 1,918 miles which again is no surprise to me!  ;)
Title: Re: Footspaths lost
Post by: barewirewalker on 09:18:07, 03/11/20
It's a massive increase on the 10% forecast by Natural England, I hope the lack of interest that sets this topic apart from Dog Poo, Fracking and other such topics that will fill pages quickly is not a sign of disinterest that will lose this cause.

A privileged minority has carried out an incredible confidence trick on the British Public. A social amenity that was supposed to award the heirs of the generations, who lost their lives in 2 World Wars the freedom to visit and enjoy the countryside they fought to defend has been deprived of at least 1/3 of that amenity. And the organization that represents that selfish minority have been publicly broadcasting that lostways are an irrelevance.

My county, Shropshire, the largest inland county, may not come high in the list of failing counties, but it is a county that cannot be walked across by a true Corridor of Countryside in any direction because of Lostways. The geography of this failure should be classed as great a stigma those counties that hold the highest awards for dereliction.

Where are the expressions of horror at this outrageous theft, is it lost in the bureaucratic mismanagement of postwar Britain and excusable? IS the key, the efforts that landowners led by the CLA, have gone to cover up the extent of the Corruption of the Definitive Map?
Title: Re: Footspaths lost
Post by: Andies on 11:50:29, 03/11/20
It's a massive increase on the 10% forecast by Natural England, I hope the lack of interest that sets this topic apart from Dog Poo, Fracking and other such topics that will fill pages quickly is not a sign of disinterest that will lose this cause.

I couldn't agree more. It seems that we few are engaged in our usual discussion on this subject area. I think many hereon have the benefit of areas of access land that means they are not so reliant upon ROW, and are I expect not subject as frequently to the issues I am all to familiar with, and which have consequently fuelled my concern about lost ways. Perhaps I would feel the same if I lived further north  :-\

This all also sits rather to closely with my increasing frustration with: the Ramblers, the counties ROW Department, and more generally other users who I would have expected to be more motivated in this area. If this statistic doesn't wake people up to the problem and result in something positive I fear the cause has for ever lost its way.. :(
Title: Re: Footspaths lost
Post by: pdstsp on 11:56:26, 03/11/20
Agreed - one thing the the first lockdown highlighted to me was just how little access there is in my area.  We have canal banks and the coastal path - I suspect the latter has so many paths due to its lack of useful purpose in agriculture or development.  Other local paths are limited.
Title: Re: Footspaths lost
Post by: pleb on 12:00:19, 03/11/20
Plenty here. We do things properly in Yorkshire.
Title: Re: Footspaths lost
Post by: Andies on 12:07:02, 03/11/20
Plenty here. We do things properly in Yorkshire.
Agreed that's what Mrs A says but then she would do coming from God's own county  O0
Title: Re: Footspaths lost
Post by: ninthace on 12:14:30, 03/11/20
Plenty here. We do things properly in Yorkshire.
I remember driving across the Pennines on the M62. I could tell when I got to Yorkshire - decent cobbles, none of the namby-pamby tarmac.  They do things properly in Yorkshire.
Title: Re: Footspaths lost
Post by: pdstsp on 12:20:22, 03/11/20
Plenty here. We do things properly in Yorkshire.


Except North Yorkshire apparently, which comes in 2nd with 2651 miles.  My experience when deviating off the normal C2C path last year would support this - we had a nightmare morning on one occasion with overgrown and blocked paths.
Title: Re: Footspaths lost
Post by: Andies on 14:23:42, 03/11/20
I took another look at the Ramblers website in respect to this, and you can put your post code in to see how many paths have been found in your area. Sadly when you put a Suffolk post code in it says 21 miles rather than 1,918 miles ;D


I had also hoped that when it referred to your area that it might mean something more detailed than for a whole county. It would be interesting to see the details of the lost ways they think they have found, but I assume they will be keeping that information for the chosen few :-\
I would make it public if only to stir up a few landowners :2funny: :2funny:
Title: Re: Footspaths lost
Post by: barewirewalker on 10:20:41, 04/11/20
No comments from the OP. This probably the most important topic that has been posted on this forum in 20 years, because it is at the core of where we are allowed to walk.
Looks to me if it is dying a death before it is even started;

Plenty here. We do things properly in Yorkshire.

Why? Is it because those local authorities were closest to where it all started or at least near enough. Do we feel so indifferent to flagrant political corruption that so obvious manipulation of an Act of Parliament designed for the good of all has been so badly distorted?

Compare the maps of those part of Yorkshire that Pleb is so self satisfied with and ask yourselves what the Definitive Map in those areas was based on? I'll bet they are a clear representation of the early OS maps the Ramblers have based this exercise on.

Now look at an old map of the area where the author, editor and publisher of the CLA's only policy on access in the last 23 lives. 11 square miles of blank (https://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?x=342661&y=246192&z=0&sv=SO+42661+46192&st=5&mapp=map.srf&searchp=ids.srf), crammed with lostways. Is this a clear pointer or clue to those responsible for the Corruption of the Definitive Map?


These are not just old shortcuts and redundant ways to work, they could have significant strategic importance not just to the local area or even the county of Hereford, but to the access network of England and Wales.

I wonder what Your Advocate would think of this? He could walk past that bit of Offa's Dyke missed by 10 miles by those, who walk the OD trail thinking it is primarily a Welsh walk.


Title: Re: Footspaths lost
Post by: ninthace on 11:11:53, 04/11/20
You make many valid points BWW but railing against the iniquities of the past will not solve the injustices of the present.  What do you see as the way ahead other than putting our full support behind the Ramblers' campaign?  How about a petition to extend or remove the deadline so there is sufficient time and resource to get these lost ways reinstated?
Title: Re: Footspaths lost
Post by: barewirewalker on 12:48:49, 04/11/20
What good will extending the deadline do if the indifference, stays the same. No one seems to have discussed the results of Natural England's lostways project, it certainly does not seem to have been flagged up by those posters who like to copy and paste links from newspapers without having opinions. More than 10 years have past and the fact that NE abandoned the experimental project to see if it is feasible to recovery lost ways legally through lots of individual courts of inquiry in single lengths of path.


I sense the lack of leadership, Andies asked if the Ramblers have a plan so why is there not links by those avid readers of the guardian to editorial that shows this. The real way forward is public shock / horror at the con trick landowners have played on this country and this forcing a 1000year embedded brainwashing to reverse a policy of self interest fueled by individual selfishness so that the rural economy can be supported by an asset that grows to suit modern needs.


PDSTSP provided a great example in his TR topic and I am putting together some maps and graphics to show an idea how black spots on the map (eg. how exclusions zones can have a negative effect on a local area access). Trouble is I don't work as fast as I used to, really needs a few younger people picking up some of the threads.

Title: Re: Footspaths lost
Post by: ninthace on 13:09:39, 04/11/20
BWW I asked  "What do you see as the way ahead other than putting our full support behind the Ramblers' campaign?  How about a petition to extend or remove the deadline so there is sufficient time and resource to get these lost ways reinstated?"
Forgive me if I misunderstood your aswer but I understand you to say it is all too difficult and not enough people care.  Do I have that right?
You asked if the Ramblers had a plan. There seems to be one in
 https://www.ramblers.org.uk/get-involved/campaign-with-us/dont-lose-your-way-2026/how-the-ramblers-are-working-to-save-lost-paths.aspx (https://www.ramblers.org.uk/get-involved/campaign-with-us/dont-lose-your-way-2026/how-the-ramblers-are-working-to-save-lost-paths.aspx)
Trouble is it will take time and resources but they seem to be trying
Title: Re: Footspaths lost
Post by: pdstsp on 13:36:46, 04/11/20
Well, I've volunteered and donated. 


Funnily, the TR of mine which BWW refers to includes a potential lostway which appears on the Ramblers map, (the quality of the map from the ramblers site which ninthace has linked isn't great), but it does not seem to run from the blocked in wall which I photographed! 


There is a little time to get applications in now - so not all is lost, but the campaign will need feet on ground and brains engaged - lets hope lots of people get involved so that some positive momentum and publicity can be generated..
Title: Re: Footspaths lost
Post by: ninthace on 13:44:42, 04/11/20
Well, I've volunteered and donated. 


Funnily, the TR of mine which BWW refers to includes a potential lostway which appears on the Ramblers map, (the quality of the map from the ramblers site which ninthace has linked isn't great), but it does not seem to run from the blocked in wall which I photographed! 


There is a little time to get applications in now - so not all is lost, but the campaign will need feet on ground and brains engaged - lets hope lots of people get involved so that some positive momentum and publicity can be generated..
Perhaps people power will succeed where Natural England didn't.
Power to the People!  As the Tooting Popular Front used to say.
Title: Re: Footspaths lost
Post by: barewirewalker on 13:51:52, 04/11/20
I will not join the ramblers, because on a basic pension and savings I do not have the resources to have them drawing a regular payment off me. They are 20 years too late with these measure, but they have at last started to make the right moves.
I would like to think that the ideas I have and others of us like us express have a chance to get through to an organization that does not have a very good record on communication, but is the crowd funding appeal is specific towards recovery of lost ways with a program with reasonable chance of success I will donate a 3 figure sum. To be successful they need to expose the  causes of the Corruption of The Definitive Map. I am still suspicious that the ramblers are pussy-footing around this issue, the difference between the CLA and NFU needs to be exposed and used, I do not think the editorials in those publications that are starting to think in the right direction are getting to the real meat of the subject.
 
There is need for opinion from the rank and file of walkers, not just complaints about blocked paths but about where paths ought to be and that is us, learning from the countryside. I try but perhaps I have still to learn how communicate, a few more people doing it might help.
Title: Re: Footspaths lost
Post by: ninthace on 14:07:08, 04/11/20
I don't think you need to be a member to volunteer your time or donate BWW.  Perhaps, if the routes found by the Ramblers Lost Ways project coincide with some of your own, you may get some way to achieving your long term goals.
Title: Re: Footspaths lost
Post by: barewirewalker on 14:26:39, 04/11/20
I agree
Then the need would be to move on from lostways to new ways. You did not seem to quite understand the gist of the topic resulting in the term offset pavements or perhaps you were testing my powers of explanation. The New ways would include stepping over a fence or hedge to provide safe connection between ways avoiding traffic, just bring forward an 18th century practice to a 21st century need.  ::) ;D
Title: Re: Footspaths lost
Post by: pdstsp on 14:35:03, 04/11/20
I've not joined - but you can volunteer and donate without being a Rambler - I am afraid I have no interest in being a member, but would like to assist in this. 
Title: Re: Footspaths lost
Post by: ninthace on 15:49:27, 04/11/20
I agree
Then the need would be to move on from lostways to new ways. You did not seem to quite understand the gist of the topic resulting in the term offset pavements or perhaps you were testing my powers of explanation. The New ways would include stepping over a fence or hedge to provide safe connection between ways avoiding traffic, just bring forward an 18th century practice to a 21st century need.  ::) ;D
I understood what you were getting at, once we had worked out it was not another OS glitch.  Just not excited by it  O0
Title: Re: Footspaths lost
Post by: Andies on 17:43:34, 04/11/20
The map on the Ramblers site is very limited and you can't make any detail out. Is that what you were referring to pdstsp?
I would be very interested to see what paths they think they have identified in my area but I assume you need to sign up to see more?
Title: Re: Footspaths lost
Post by: pdstsp on 22:32:03, 04/11/20
The map on the Ramblers site is very limited and you can't make any detail out. Is that what you were referring to pdstsp?



Yes, sorry if I wasn't clear. The detail is sadly lacking  but it is possible to identify bits here and there.
Title: Re: Footspaths lost
Post by: barewirewalker on 10:52:27, 05/11/20
 This is the Ramblers plan;Millions of £'s of public money were spent on Natural England's Lostway Project to collect evidence that there is legal proof to reinstate lostways on the definitive map.


Quote
Identifying potential lost rights of way is just the start of a long process to put them back on the map. There are four more steps to saving them:
  1.  Prioritise those paths which add the most benefit for people.
  2.  Research individual paths to find out if they can be saved.
  3.  Build applications based on historical evidence.
  4.  Submit applications by 1st January 2026.
There is plenty of scope to prepare a massive document of anecdotal evidence to support No.1 but  2 and 3 have been covered in the counties Natural Englands Project and this was hushed up, Why?

 
So what's missing;
The CLA will wait till 2026 then fast track all the applications so that the responsible applicants are caught carrying the costs, using the wealth of individual landowners, who have been brainwashed into thinking RoW devalue land. But who is responsible for these lostways, it is the County Councils, who allowed the interest of local landowner's to Corrupt the creation of the Definitive Map.


Corruption, Corruption, Corruption has got to be exposed. There are 49,000 miles of it that shows the will of Parliament was ignored.


The CLA's opposition, which is well documented, this needs to be discredited.




Title: Re: Footspaths lost
Post by: Andies on 14:43:44, 05/11/20
As I have said before the current system of getting ROW onto the definitive map is too onerous. A simpler system is needed with a lower evidence threshold and a presumption in favour of the potential ROW rather than what currently exists.
I struggle to see how much of the 1,918 miles of lost ways identified by the Ramblers project in Suffolk will actually result in routes making it onto the definitive map. This view is echoed by the Suffolk Area Ramblers Footpath Officer who in the autumn newsletter refers to the extensive work undertaken by John Andrews in Suffolk over 50 years researching and having successfully put hundreds of ROW onto the definitive map, and suggesting that almost all sources of historic evidence have been fully examined in that respect.
They suggest there may be a few possible routes but if they don't see this as a viable option to getting these through the current system something needs to change.
Consequently I think the argument must be made in the light of the 49,000 miles figure that the system is not fit for purpose and probably never has been. Some would say it's corrupt. The Ramblers shouldn't just push for a delay of five years in the 2026 deadline but rather for a new system of reviewing claimed ROW that is based on realistic levels of evidence underpinned by common sense, and perhaps the requirement for landowners to prove that a ROW doesn't exist rather than the claimant proving it does  O0
Title: Re: Footspaths lost
Post by: barewirewalker on 13:44:10, 06/11/20
I like your line of reasoning, I hope more read and reflect than make comment.
A simpler system is needed with a lower evidence threshold and a presumption in favour of the potential ROW rather than what currently exists.
....................... , and perhaps the requirement for landowners to prove that a ROW doesn't exist rather than the claimant proving it does  O0
If the landowner lobby were maneuvered into admitting the corruption of the DM, this would be an obvious progress beyond that.


I still think that the access network is an under performing national asset that earns the national economy much more than has been yet measured. The extent that the reluctance of the landowner to admit to sharing the countryside by an unwillingness to first recognize the 49,000 miles should be shown on the nation's balance sheet.
Title: Re: Footspaths lost
Post by: ninthace on 14:22:04, 06/11/20
The first step is to get the lost paths reinstated in the Definitive Map.  This is a paper exercise.  I would have thought that the burden of proof issue was fairly straightforward given where the data on these lost ways are drawn from.  The sources are documentary rather than anecdotal.  Here is the old map on which the path is shown,  here is the Definitive Map on which the path is missing.  The only reason why a path should not be accepted onto the Definitive Map should be that it is no longer physically possible e.g. a housing development, industrial estate, reservoir or motorway in the way.


Once they have been accepted onto the Definitive Map the rest can follow in slower time and the paths that need to be, can be reinstated in order of those that offer greatest benefits first.  How this is done and how it is funded can be argued about once the Definitive Map has been updated.


IMHO the addition of other lost ways that are not marked as FPs on the old maps and the creation of new through routes is a separate issue requiring a greater burden of proof.

Title: Re: Footspaths lost
Post by: Andies on 15:12:14, 06/11/20
The first step is to get the lost paths reinstated in the Definitive Map.  This is a paper exercise.  I would have thought that the burden of proof issue was fairly straightforward given where the data on these lost ways are drawn from.  The sources are documentary rather than anecdotal.  Here is the old map on which the path is shown,  here is the Definitive Map on which the path is missing.  The only reason why a path should not be accepted onto the Definitive Map should be that it is no longer physically possible e.g. a housing development, industrial estate, reservoir or motorway in the way.


Once they have been accepted onto the Definitive Map the rest can follow in slower time and the paths that need to be, can be reinstated in order of those that offer greatest benefits first.  How this is done and how it is funded can be argued about once the Definitive Map has been updated.


IMHO the addition of other lost ways that are not marked as FPs on the old maps and the creation of new through routes is a separate issue requiring a greater burden of proof.


If only it was that straight forward. As I understand it the maps may indicate a footpath was there but not necessarily a public right of way. A disclaimer to this effect appears on all OS maps.
More evidence is required and that is where the difficulty is. The whole subject can be incredibly complicated and is to my mind skewed very much in favour of the landowner. The best evidence is of course that of users but with most routes I have investigated there just aren't any alive now, as the paths have long since fallen out of use and were never included on the definitive map, often of course through the failures of the system.
Some years ago when first getting involved in lost ways I was told by a very well known Ramblers Footpath Officer who has got hundreds of ROW onto the definitive map that: "I  warn you that your research may well end in nothing more than frustration". He was of course right but I learnt an enormous amount in going through records of all kinds, many of which I never knew existed.
Others herein may already know of this reference book but I have certainly found it useful in my research as it explains the process of researching lost rights of ways in great detail. Namely: "Rights of Way, Restoring the Record, by Sarah Bucks and Phil Wadey ISBN 978-0-9574036-1-1.
It's worth a read although I found it a bit repetitive in parts.
Title: Re: Footspaths lost
Post by: ninthace on 16:09:45, 06/11/20
My bad - I thought the pecked lines marked FP on the maps we were looking at were old ROWs as distinct from the other pecked lines on the  map which I thought had the same status as the modern black pecked line.
Title: Re: Footspaths lost
Post by: barewirewalker on 19:27:59, 06/11/20
The first step is to get the lost paths reinstated in the Definitive Map.  This is a paper exercise.  I would have thought that the burden of proof issue was fairly straightforward given where the data on these lost ways are drawn from.  The sources are documentary rather than anecdotal.  Here is the old map on which the path is shown,  here is the Definitive Map on which the path is missing.
I may be wrong but I think that if many of the lostways got through 2016 and found their way to a court of inquiry, one of the burdens of proof would be factual evidence that the way had been used by within a witness' living memory. The actual written is more likely to be part of estate records, much of this destroyed or decaying in attics and unlikely to be unearthed. The people, who would have used these ways will be long dead, as the paths they walked were closed off back in the 60's as the definitive map started to allow new users to walk these ways.

A way that might be discovered because tax relief might have been claimed on it in 1911, yet still needs to be shown to be used and the it is only centenarians, who can provide this witnessed information.
Title: Re: Footspaths lost
Post by: Andies on 21:53:38, 06/11/20
There are many different types of evidence that can be used to support a claim to have a right of way added to the definitive map, but clearly this must be sufficient to meet the requirements especially where this is challenged by a landowner. Ultimately the decision rests with the Rights of Way Department but can go to an Inspector on appeal.
Some evidence can be conclusive proof on it's own such as reference to the setting out of a footpath in an Inclosure Award. Usually there is a mixture of evidence that builds the case. It's not necessary to have user evidence and is indeed impractical in many older cases. Obviously where there is strong substantiated user evidence this is very useful in making the case.
The whole area is so complex and demanding to be very difficult to pursue in my opinion. I have been researching one such potential lost way in a neighbouring village for the past couple of years and must have spent dozen of hours pursuing matters, and still haven't got enough evidence although I believe I am getting there. Many dead ends and surprises along the way but all very interesting. Unfortunately Covid hasn't helped progress in recent months.
That said I have come to believe the system is broken and that the odds are stacked against me as it stands. Consequently I know I need to get as much evidence as I can as I know the landowner will resist the claimed right of way. Even then I suspect without the support of the Ramblers I would not feel confident in pursuing the claim.
Title: Re: Footspaths lost
Post by: mad dug on 23:38:27, 07/11/20
Like another poster I do not hold Ramblers membership as my income is a pretty  meagre pension and I cant justify the outlay on ramblers membership over heating costs. I have made a donation on the crowdfunding page though and pleased to see that they have now raised over £66,800 . They aimed to raise £49000 so it shows it is a cause close to peoples hearts and hopefully the extra money raised will give them a bit more clout .(money talks they say )
I live on the Essex / Suffolk border and see that Essex has 1422 miles of lost paths and Suffolk 1918 miles.I optimistically look forward to these lost paths being reinstated before my great great grandchildren are " aw deid"
 
Title: Re: Footspaths lost
Post by: Eyelet on 10:34:41, 08/11/20
The map on the Ramblers site is very limited and you can't make any detail out. I would be very interested to see what paths they think they have identified in my area but I assume you need to sign up to see more?

This might be a better starting point ...

https://data.nls.uk/projects/finding-lost-footpaths-using-gb1900/ (https://data.nls.uk/projects/finding-lost-footpaths-using-gb1900/)
Title: Re: Footspaths lost
Post by: Andies on 12:30:40, 08/11/20
Thanks for the link Eyelet but unless I am misunderstanding what I am looking at this is a data set referencing the annotation of "F.P." that is a footpath on these old maps. What I am hoping to see at some point is the detailed map showing the possible lost ways that the Ramblers project has identified as such.
I have also taken a detailed look at the Lost Ways Project information on the Ramblers website and I think some of my fears about this are confirmed in that detail. Namely they will focus their efforts on lost ways that are "useful" and whilst some guidance is given of what they feel is useful, I do feel this all misses the important issue of how come so many routes have been missed off in the first place. As I have said a number of times before I think the focus of the finding of 49,000 miles of lost ways through this exercise alone shows just how poorly the system has worked or not over the past 70 years. Consequently the argument should be that we need a different system going forward and not just an acceptance that we can sort matters by 2026 or 2031 with a five year extension as the Ramblers are suggesting, and then forget about anything that didn't make it onto the definitive map.
Like another poster I do not hold Ramblers membership as my income is a pretty  meagre pension and I cant justify the outlay on ramblers membership over heating costs. I have made a donation on the crowdfunding page though and pleased to see that they have now raised over £66,800 . They aimed to raise £49000 so it shows it is a cause close to peoples hearts and hopefully the extra money raised will give them a bit more clout .(money talks they say )
I live on the Essex / Suffolk border and see that Essex has 1422 miles of lost paths and Suffolk 1918 miles.I optimistically look forward to these lost paths being reinstated before my great great grandchildren are " aw deid"
 
I admire your optimism mad dug but as I referred to in a previous post on this thread the Suffolk Ramblers Footpath Officer and his predecessor John Andrews as referenced in the Suffolk Ramblers Autumn Newsletter don't seem very optimistic that there are many potential routes that can be added as there isn't the necessary historical evidence out there that is required under the current system. So as I keep saying hereon the current system isn't IMHO going to deliver much more. Hence I am somewhat reluctant to donate and I wonder if this isn't just being used to top the coffers up a bit. Whilst such fundraising will and indeed must be ring fenced (restricted funds under Charity Law) for this purpose, I would have thought that this whole area goes to the very core of the Ramblers objects and should be what my annual subscription is already funding :-\
Title: Re: Footspaths lost
Post by: Eyelet on 12:57:08, 08/11/20
Thanks for the link Eyelet but unless I am misunderstanding what I am looking at this is a data set referencing the annotation of "F.P." that is a footpath on these old maps. What I am hoping to see at some point is the detailed map showing the possible lost ways that the Ramblers project has identified as such.

No you are not misunderstanding, the RA mapping hasn't been released yet as far as I know, but a lot of the leg work (pun intended ;) ) was based on historical OS mapping and this collection of paths with the F.P. annotation was one element. RA will release the 'lost paths' mapping in due course and I would expect it to be very similar to the BHS mapping project for lost bridleways: https://www.bhsaccess.org.uk/dobbin/Project2026.php (https://www.bhsaccess.org.uk/dobbin/Project2026.php).  I believe the two organisations are collaborating on the '2026' project.
Title: Re: Footspaths lost
Post by: Andies on 15:18:47, 08/11/20
I would expect it to be very similar to the BHS mapping project for lost bridleways: https://www.bhsaccess.org.uk/dobbin/Project2026.php (https://www.bhsaccess.org.uk/dobbin/Project2026.php).  I believe the two organisations are collaborating on the '2026' project.
An interesting link. I took a look at my local area and not surprisingly  I saw some correlation with lost ways that I believe exist. What seemed to be missing when I drilled down into the detail of these lost bridleways was anything other than someone having marked the map as such. That is there was no evidence recorded to support a claim which is of course the difficult bit.
For example I completed a large number of squares as a part of the Ramblers project and marked up hundreds of potential lost ways in so doing. But the practicality of compiling the evidence to support these even if it does exist is enormous. I have spent many hours over the past couple of years on one potential lost way alone, and whilst I have some good evidence I know it isn't enough to be sure of success. Interestingly this is one that appears in part on the BHS site but alas no evidence thereon.
I also noted that the BHS site had some local routes I had never entertained as possible lost ways but without anything other than the route logged it is impossible to know why someone has logged it. In addition some routes logged thereon were already ROW on the definitive map which I thought meant the loggers were trying to upgrade from footpaths to bridleways, but on closer inspection these were more often than not already bridleways, byways or other tracks used as roads, which was rather confusing. That said anything that gets people interested in the subject is good, but I fear this may all die a death in the face of the practicalities of making claims under the current system. It can't cope now let alone if hundreds of claims do start to be made.
Title: Re: Footspaths lost
Post by: barewirewalker on 22:34:38, 08/11/20
The evidence of the map comparisons used by the ramblers is purely circumstantial, as I see it, but the level the compilation of the the definitive map is based on the same maps is surely the strongest supporting evidence. It is the omissions that need to be looked at critically, as those officers of local government trusted with the task were supporting local landowners who did not want rights of way.

In my locality it is clear from an inside knowledge of landownership that the flaws in the definitive map are supported by private estates having support from officials or being the officials themselves, who were biased against the intentions of the 1949 Act.


The counter argument that the ramblers are hoping to carry the re-instatement of these lostways would be best interpreted by building a case on economics. Routes that serve a purpose and can be identified, earn money, surveys show this. The individual landowner, who denies access also denies some part of the economy along the way from benefiting from that way. Too often the individual landowner is so wrapped up in his own local self importance that he is blind to the wider map.
Title: Re: Footspaths lost
Post by: Andies on 10:34:32, 09/11/20
The counter argument that the ramblers are hoping to carry the re-instatement of these lostways would be best interpreted by building a case on economics. Routes that serve a purpose and can be identified, earn money, surveys show this. The individual landowner, who denies access also denies some part of the economy along the way from benefiting from that way. Too often the individual landowner is so wrapped up in his own local self importance that he is blind to the wider map.
As usual I agree with all that you say BWW. The problem is how do we get that message across to the landowners. In the case that I have often referred to hereon about a dead end path that crosses two landowners farm land I did get a response from one landowner when I approached them about the issue but I fear this was only because they were a district councillor. It didn't give me a favourable response but there was some acknowledgement at least. The other landowner, a notorious character locally, shall we call him Mr Y, never even acknowledged my enquiry. He sees no real threat in my enquiry because he has ignored the rules in respect to this path for years and nothing is done about it by: the ROW Department, the Ramblers, or the Parish Council. I am irrelevant to him as he fails to see the link between his activities and me as a consumer of his products, let alone as a user of a ROW in the rural economy.
Unfortunately for him his selfish behaviour is beginning to catch up with him. Apparently one of his clan, no doubt equally brainwashed by the same inherited entitlement, challenged a village resident on the footpath route in an unfortunate manner. As a consequence interest has been re-ignited, as some previously unfamiliar with the corruption of the past and indeed present now take an interest, and the Parish Council under increased informed pressure is having to look again. What will come of it I am not sure but I think the message is to keep pushing when and where you can as it's the only way anything will ever happen.... :-\

Title: Re: Footspaths lost
Post by: barewirewalker on 15:54:19, 11/11/20
As usual I agree with all that you say BWW. The problem is how do we get that message across to the landowners.What will come of it I am not sure but I think

the message is to keep pushing when and where you can as it's the only way anything will ever happen.... :-\
And to keep up talking about it, every now and again a particular instance sparks up some connectivity with other walkers. If this subject received as much response as popular issues outside of our common interest but seem to make onto this forum then perhaps the popular press would pick up on it. I think we walkers should be far more critical of the Rambler's PR, if you compare the level of articles the RSPB manage to pump out in editorial in almost every section of the media, walking, as the fastest growing and numerically the most participated in, pastime / sport is very poorly supported.
The countryside lobby groups supporting leisure users are poorly supported by those businesses that make money out clothing and equipment, TV programs such as Countryfile pussyfoot around the issue. Perhaps the popular press will start to realise there are some good stories to be had at the expense of the 'Colonel Blimps' of 'Nouveau Sqiredom' and the Lord Haw Haws' of the CLA's propaganda.
Title: Re: Footspaths lost
Post by: mad dug on 00:17:29, 12/11/20
I agree fully with your posts on this subject Andies . I am an optimistic person normally and although I don't hold up much hope in any changes happening with the lost footpath campaign I thought it was worth my little financial punt.I look on it as my little kick at the landowning "gentry".

Title: Re: Footspaths lost
Post by: pleb on 12:28:11, 12/11/20
Is there a site with a more detailed breakdown of areas missing paths? Eg. West Yorkshire. Then areas within it. Just looked and cannot see anything.
Title: Re: Footspaths lost
Post by: pdstsp on 12:58:24, 12/11/20

Here you go Pleb,

https://e-activist.com/page/70259/action/1


Not the greatest clarity on the map unfortunately.
Title: Re: Footspaths lost
Post by: Davidedgarjones on 17:28:12, 12/11/20
You can't compare the Ramblers with the RSPB who say "We are now Europe's largest conservation charity with over 1.1 million members."
Dave[/size]
Title: Re: Footspaths lost
Post by: pleb on 17:46:40, 12/11/20
Here you go Pleb,

https://e-activist.com/page/70259/action/1 (https://e-activist.com/page/70259/action/1)


Not the greatest clarity on the map unfortunately.
Cheers. Can't tell from the map which are meant to be lost ways in my area.
Title: Re: Footspaths lost
Post by: pdstsp on 17:51:07, 16/11/20
Know what you mean - my area is blurred, but I have managed to identify most of them. 
Title: Re: Footspaths lost
Post by: Andies on 19:40:18, 16/11/20
I really struggled to make anything out so hope the detail will be shared in due course. That said it could be problematic making it too widely available albeit as it's a historic exercise I cannot see how landowners can change the evidence either way even if they wanted to.