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Main Boards => News and Articles => Topic started by: bricam2096 on 21:29:08, 04/11/18

Title: another truly avoidable rescue, 10 brain dead walkers
Post by: bricam2096 on 21:29:08, 04/11/18
Honestly lost for words.....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-46088969

Title: Re: another truly avoidable rescue, 10 brain dead walkers
Post by: rural roamer on 22:44:34, 04/11/18
Just seen this on grough news. And coming only a couple of days after a pair of walkers were stuck near the summit in the dark and quote “they did not have the map, the compass and torches or the skill and experience to make their way safely down, avoiding the danger areas.”

What on earth possesses people to head up a mountain in the dark with just a phone for navigation?
Title: Re: another truly avoidable rescue, 10 brain dead walkers
Post by: tenmilesplus on 00:30:13, 05/11/18
I wonder what their ages are ? Know all Millennials or dopey Snowflakes ? Surely Night walks are for experienced people on well trodden routes ?? How can people be made more responsible or to accept responsibility for their own actions ? I was brought up to be responsible for my actions and as a result try not to do stupid things and at the very least try to do as much homework as I can..
Title: Re: another truly avoidable rescue, 10 brain dead walkers
Post by: ninthace on 00:56:25, 05/11/18
I liked the comment - the smarter the phone, the dumber the user.
Title: Re: another truly avoidable rescue, 10 brain dead walkers
Post by: rural roamer on 07:55:14, 05/11/18
I assumed (maybe wrongly) that they were doing the Three Peaks and that was why they were walking at night.
Title: Re: another truly avoidable rescue, 10 brain dead walkers
Post by: richardh1905 on 08:35:14, 05/11/18

Top of Piers Gill potentially a VERY dangerous place to get lost.


..and I can scarcely believe that not a single one of the ten didn't have the sense to pack a map and compass!
Title: Re: another truly avoidable rescue, 10 brain dead walkers
Post by: pleb on 10:34:43, 05/11/18
Top of Piers Gill potentially a VERY dangerous place to get lost.


..and I can scarcely believe that not a single one of the ten didn't have the sense to pack a map and compass!
I can, some folk dont have maps, or a compass, its all on the phone.
Title: Re: another truly avoidable rescue, 10 brain dead walkers
Post by: Lakeland Lorry on 11:28:24, 05/11/18
One of the guys who was rescued has posted a few comments on the Wasdale MRT Facebook page, saying:


Hi Guys, I just want to thank you from us all for giving us telephone guidance this morning. We will be making a donation to you as we value and appreciate you help and what you do. However your statement is factually wrong. All walkers were fully equipped and had GPS and silva compass, plus digital too and paper map but the conditions deteriorated at a rapid rate, rendering the GPS inoperable and using the map impossible. We as a team regularly walk mountains and the previous day completed Ben Nevis. We would never intentionally put ourselves at risk and everything was fully planned all equipment provided, we also would never want to waste you valuable time either, in 30 years of walking and mountain climbing I have never needed to call upon you but very grateful that you provide such an excellent service, as you know the most experienced of walkers come to difficulty at one time or another.

According to the other comments made, it was part of a 3 Peaks challenge event with an organisation called Warrior Training Strength and Conditioning.   They had apparently already done Ben Nevis in what they called 'brutal' conditions, and despite the awful weather they decided to push on and do Scafell Pike.   


The organiser also said:

I also went up 4 weeks ago during the day hours and mapped the route so I could use the route this weekend. I have done this many times and have had no issues with os mapping previously?? On this occasion[/color][/size]. It wasn’t following the route and the severe rain, sleet, very high winds made using a paper(waterproof) map extremely difficult and hard cover none existent. Nobody was in danger but some extremely tired, so for the safety of all concerned the call was made after all options were exhausted. I am not one for waisting the rescue teams valuable time as I too rescue people as a Firefighter. Learning points are take a back up GPS or one or more of the group bring theirs.



Lots more comments on the Wasdale MRT's Facebook page.




Title: Re: another truly avoidable rescue, 10 brain dead walkers
Post by: bricam2096 on 11:40:18, 05/11/18
The first part says the conditions made the gps inoperable but then he/she says that next time they will take a back up GPS or get someone else to take theirs. Do they explain why the GPS was useless?

Surely in a group of 10 more than 1 person should have a GPS with them, even if it's just in the rucksack. I always carry mine, even on routes I know very well as you just never know.

What happens in that group of 10 in darkness if someone decides half way that they can't manage it and wants to go back?

If the conditions were that bad, did they check beforehand and still only carry one GPS? Just sounds to me like they are making excuses for their stupidity.
Title: Re: another truly avoidable rescue, 10 brain dead walkers
Post by: alan de enfield on 11:48:38, 05/11/18


Surely in a group of 10 more than 1 person should have a GPS with them, even if it's just in the rucksack. I always carry mine, even on routes I know very well as you just never know.





A bit of inconsistency me thinks (if you tell the truth you don't need a good memory)


In the 1st section it says :



All walkers were fully equipped and had GPS and silva compass, plus digital too and paper map ………………






Maybe he means they all had mobile phones ?


My (dedicated) GPS doesn't seem to mind if its dark, raining and windy, it just gets on with it.
Title: Re: another truly avoidable rescue, 10 brain dead walkers
Post by: Percy on 13:05:36, 05/11/18
If they were genuinely  ‘fully equipped’ to go up Scafell Pike in November, in the dark, they should have been equipped to spend the night on the mountain.
Title: Re: another truly avoidable rescue, 10 brain dead walkers
Post by: Lakeland Lorry on 14:28:36, 05/11/18
More comments, from the group who got lost:


All 10 are extremely experienced walkers, one guy was ex army and another an army reservist trained for survival situations. The whole group had done a recce of the mountain 3 weeks ago during the day to ensure they had a good idea of the terrain in preparation for a nighttime climb. The web of lies around lack of equipment, no compass etc is totally false - they had ALL of the necessary equipment including the means to stay up there overnight if needs be - the truth of the matter is that they were overcome by horrendous conditions which simply meant they lost their way and needed help to get back to the path.


and


.....the issue with the map was simply due to visibility -there was horizontal rain and next to zero visibility making it virtually impossible to identify meaningful landmarks and locations.

The issue with GPS still needs to be fully investigated - it wasn't providing a reliable fix on location and often wasn't picking up a location signal at all. We had been on a recce of the route 3 weeks ago and programmed way points into the GPS to assist with the navigation but obviously this failed us last night. It goes without saying we are also keen to find out what went wrong with the kit and when we have an answer we will of course be delighted to share it.




Title: Re: another truly avoidable rescue, 10 brain dead walkers
Post by: Percy on 15:11:11, 05/11/18
So that’s an admission that it was a totally unnecessary call out. They should have stayed on the mountain if they were equipped to do so and walked down when it became light. A perfect example of all the gear but no idea.
Title: Re: another truly avoidable rescue, 10 brain dead walkers
Post by: astaman on 16:22:49, 05/11/18
I may be misunderstanding this situation but the 'call out' involved the duty leader in Wasdale sending a text which activated their GPS (presumable on a phone) and they were then talked off the mountain. A bit different from a rescue team going up there in the middle of the night. Also, a member of this group and a representative of the organisation leading the group gave their account of the events. There is obvious evidence that they are lying. They may be of course but that would need to be demonstrated surely. It is just possible that someone has over-reacted and the news services have given it sensationalist spin.
Title: Re: another truly avoidable rescue, 10 brain dead walkers
Post by: astaman on 16:24:32, 05/11/18
Sorry, errata: that should have read '...no obvious reason to assume they are lying...'.
Title: Re: another truly avoidable rescue, 10 brain dead walkers
Post by: alan de enfield on 17:07:21, 05/11/18
Sorry, errata: that should have read '...no obvious reason to assume they are lying...'.



Inconsistency :


Paragraph 1
ALL walkers were fully equipped and had GPS...………..


Paragraph 2
Learning points are take a back up GPS or one or more of the group bring theirs.


Title: Re: another truly avoidable rescue, 10 brain dead walkers
Post by: April on 18:39:46, 05/11/18
Navigation problems aside - did they not check the weather forecast? The usual ones we check are MWIS, Weatherline and Mountain-forecast and they all said the same for Saturday day and night, truly atrocious conditions especially on the higher fells. And they had said this for days it wasn't a last minute change of forecast.

At least it wasn't a full rescue and they could be talked down to safety, they were lucky, it could have been worse.

Warrior Training's next charity event is a trek to Everest Base Camp according to their website, I wonder how many people will sign up for this?
Title: Re: another truly avoidable rescue, 10 brain dead walkers
Post by: Hillhiker1 on 18:51:32, 05/11/18
Navigation problems aside - did they not check the weather forecast? The usual ones we check are MWIS, Weatherline and Mountain-forecast and they all said the same for Saturday day and night, truly atrocious conditions especially on the higher fells. And they had said this for days it wasn't a last minute change of forecast.

Spot on April O0 And experienced hikers should maybe have made the decision NOT to turn out. :o
Title: Re: another truly avoidable rescue, 10 brain dead walkers
Post by: April on 12:57:15, 06/11/18
experienced hikers should maybe have made the decision NOT to turn out. :o

Absolutely. I've been reading the comments on Wasdale Mountain Rescue fb page from some of the people who were part of the group who got lost and they don't seem to be taking on board that the weather didn't get worse; it was already atrocious. I hope they do learn from this and take note of the weather conditions properly and make a wiser decision next time.
Title: Re: another truly avoidable rescue, 10 brain dead walkers
Post by: Lakeland Lorry on 13:56:48, 06/11/18
So, despite one of the organisers protesting that the weather was fine when they set off; and that everyone within the group were well equipped and experienced; and that the MRT spokesman is telling porkies, these are interesting comments posted by the partner of one of the women in the group on the Wasdale MRT FB page:


yes this was Jenna after trying to convince her for near on a week that this was a seriously foolish idea due to the time of year and the weather conditions, she still decided to go along with the group from Warrior Gym after previously failing to complete this ridiculous challenge just only four weeks ago , I tried to tell her this is a life threatening exercise for beginner walkers who had very little experience of these mountains , when she came home she didn't even tell me they had to be rescued, I later found out today on the BBC News.
I also agree with the people who have commented above that this activity by gym goers who think just because they can squat a little weight and exercise for an hour non stop doesn't mean there minds are automatically qualified to navigate themselves around the three highest mountains in the U.K. in record time of 24 hours within the winter months, this is a serious incident that I'm so thankful to the rescue team for bringing the mother of my little girl down to safety .

Hopefully the word of this spreads far a field and is a massive lesson to other people out there and lives will be protected from this type of challenge.


Enjoy what's beyond your back gardens, the Snowdonia Range is my back garden and I've been exploring it for years , it is a amazing place to be explored at the correct time of day but still just as easy to get lost without the correct equipment so always stay safe and take advice from people who know what there talking about .

ONE LIFE , LIVE IT........STAY ALIVE !

And another comment:

Everybody wasn't equipped Ricky Nicholson and not everybody knew how to read a paper map along with the use of a compass , everybody wasn't familiar with the mountains neither , these mountains aren't Moel Famau or Moel Arthur where some of these people practiced a couple of times before entering this Challenge, this is called the the 3 Peak Challenge for a reason, it's a Challenge not a walk in the Park and not everybody can do it, people who do this challenge if there soft enough to try in record time would at least be familiar with all 3 mountains to begin with .

Glad everybody had the knowledge to stick together this time and everybody got down safely in the end.

God forbid if there was any fatalities.

Hope this has been a big lesson learnt by Warrior Gym


Title: Re: another truly avoidable rescue, 10 brain dead walkers
Post by: Innominate Man on 14:39:05, 06/11/18
I've been keeping quiet as the story unfolded but these last few posts show the real situation and not the preferred version that the organisers would like the wider World to know.


One fact is being overlooked:- It was mentioned on Grough that this wasn't a team call out and that they had been talked off the mountain by the Wasdale MRT base.
How come, if these well equipped - experienced walkers who some say had the right gear and had been up there several weeks before to recce the route, couldn't recognise any navigational features to check against the aids they were equipped with: But, a handler in the MRT base (who had no visual on them) was able to talk them down ?
This disparity is arguably indicative of the level of preparation.


Although we can appreciate the MRT had a fix on their position, there must still have been some amount of 'latitude' which only the experience of the MRT could interpret from conversations with the walkers into a meaningful understanding of where they were and where they needed to walk to get onto a path/safety.
Otherwise, they could have been guided off a very steep drop or at the least - be waked around in circles until coming to a recognisable place/path.
The MRT handler must have been very confident in knowing where these people were, otherwise you'd have expected a full call out. It shows the unbelievable level of knowledge the local MRTs possess to be able to do this. Full credit to them.
Not being in that party leaves it difficult for the rest of us to know what they were going through and why they did certain things, but some aspects can only lead to certain conclusions.









Title: Re: another truly avoidable rescue, 10 brain dead walkers
Post by: andybr on 16:01:01, 06/11/18
I've been keeping quiet as the story unfolded but these last few posts show the real situation and not the preferred version that the organisers would like the wider World to know.


One fact is being overlooked:- It was mentioned on Grough that this wasn't a team call out and that they had been talked off the mountain by the Wasdale MRT base.
How come, if these well equipped - experienced walkers who some say had the right gear and had been up there several weeks before to recce the route, couldn't recognise any navigational features to check against the aids they were equipped with: But, a handler in the MRT base (who had no visual on them) was able to talk them down ?
This disparity is arguably indicative of the level of preparation.


Although we can appreciate the MRT had a fix on their position, there must still have been some amount of 'latitude' which only the experience of the MRT could interpret from conversations with the walkers into a meaningful understanding of where they were and where they needed to walk to get onto a path/safety.
Otherwise, they could have been guided off a very steep drop or at the least - be waked around in circles until coming to a recognisable place/path.
The MRT handler must have been very confident in knowing where these people were, otherwise you'd have expected a full call out. It shows the unbelievable level of knowledge the local MRTs possess to be able to do this. Full credit to them.
Not being in that party leaves it difficult for the rest of us to know what they were going through and why they did certain things, but some aspects can only lead to certain conclusions.


This is purely a guess but I suspect that if the group were trying to descend via the side of Piers Gill the rescue team would advise them to go back over Lingmell Col and down the "tourist" route. Not that that excuses the apparently woeful lack of preparation.
Title: Re: another truly avoidable rescue, 10 brain dead walkers
Post by: Lakeland Lorry on 16:21:06, 06/11/18
Looks like the postings on the Wasdale MRT FB page have all been deleted.   


 ::) ::)
Title: Re: another truly avoidable rescue, 10 brain dead walkers
Post by: rural roamer on 18:28:28, 06/11/18
Not surprised it was deleted, there was a lot of mud-slinging going on
Title: Re: another truly avoidable rescue, 10 brain dead walkers
Post by: April on 08:27:55, 07/11/18
I saw a post from one of the group who were helped . She was thanking the MRT team member who helped them down "for doing her job". I wonder if she realised this was voluntary help and the team member gave up a nights sleep to help them all for free?
Title: Re: another truly avoidable rescue, 10 brain dead walkers
Post by: Maggot on 22:33:59, 15/11/18
Sorry, errata: that should have read '...no obvious reason to assume they are lying...'.


I am kind of with you on this.  Why would they make it all up?  They would clearly get caught out.


I wonder if the story had been "Experienced walkers find themselves out of their depth and get a bit of remote help" would have grabbed the headlines as well though?
Title: Re: another truly avoidable rescue, 10 brain dead walkers
Post by: Lakeland Lorry on 08:31:05, 16/11/18
I wonder if the story had been "Experienced walkers find themselves out of their depth and get a bit of remote help" would have grabbed the headlines as well though?


Having read most of posts on FB, before they were deleted, I'm not convinced at all that they were experienced walkers.   This is what the partner, of one of the females on the event, posted on FB:


.......yes this was Jenna after trying to convince her for near on a week that this was a seriously foolish idea due to the time of year and the weather conditions, she still decided to go along with the group from Warrior Gym after previously failing to complete this ridiculous challenge just only four weeks ago , I tried to tell her this is a life threatening exercise for beginner walkers who had very little experience of these mountains , when she came home she didn't even tell me they had to be rescued, I later found out today on the BBC News.   I also agree with the people who have commented above that this activity by gym goers who think just because they can squat a little weight and exercise for an hour non stop doesn't mean there minds are automatically qualified to navigate themselves around the three highest mountains in the U.K. in record time of 24 hours within the winter months, this is a serious incident that I'm so thankful to the rescue team for bringing the mother of my little girl down to safety.