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Main Boards => General Walking Discussion => Topic started by: dittzzy on 21:40:52, 01/12/18

Title: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: dittzzy on 21:40:52, 01/12/18
OK, so you need a facebook account to view this video, but .......  Really good advice.  (If anyone can find another non facebook link to it, please add)
https://www.facebook.com/FarmersGuardian/videos/579127269184471/UzpfSTEwMDAwMTY1ODYxNjMxMToyMTM5MjMwNDQyODA4ODg5/ (https://www.facebook.com/FarmersGuardian/videos/579127269184471/UzpfSTEwMDAwMTY1ODYxNjMxMToyMTM5MjMwNDQyODA4ODg5/)
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: BuzyG on 22:16:17, 01/12/18
Sound advice. Just walk past them and ignore them works fine. O0
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: happyhiker on 10:46:54, 02/12/18
Thanks for this which I have shared on Twitter, because lots of walkers are terrified of cows. I too have found if you just walk slowly and quietly through the field, they ignore you. However, I would add that it pays to give any cow with calf a wide berth. This is the only time a cow has made a threatening move towards me., when I got too close. Also, never get between a cow and its calf.


I find horses much scarier!
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: barewirewalker on 13:05:07, 02/12/18
Looks to be all young stock, Bullocks and Heifers, although I don't have a FB a/c so only saw a third without sound. Hereford crosses, charollais and friesians, it's mature Limousins with calf at foot that I try to watch out for. The single suckler herd and if they are more remote from the farm buildings so the human contact is less frequent are worthwhile observations to add to warning signs.
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: Bigfoot_Mike on 14:03:46, 02/12/18
My wife and I came across a few bovines on a walk from near Achgarve to Slaggan (a now defunct hamlet at the north eastern end of Loch Ewe with a great beach- sometimes complete with cows). On the return leg we found the track blocked by two highland cows and a bull. To stay on the track we would have had to walk right through the middle of them and pass within two feet of their huge horns. Perhaps we would have been fine, but I decided not to take a chance, so we crossed a ditch and I hauled my wife up a steep heathery bank. We, thus, avoided the beasts, which did appear to take some interest in us. Another cow started descending the hill, apparently towards us, but we made it back to the start of the walk without further incident.


A couple of years ago on the Applecross peninsula, we saw a family of Japanese tourists with young children so keen to get a photograph of some highland cows at the side of the road that they were standing right amongst them. It was pretty much like paparazzi with cameras being shoved into hairy faces. There were calves in the herd, so that was a risk I wouldn’t take. I remember many years ago a tourist was killed by a highland cow at Plockton, as he managed to get between her and the calf.
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: sussamb on 14:39:41, 02/12/18
However, I would add that it pays to give any cow with calf a wide berth. This is the only time a cow has made a threatening move towards me., when I got too close. Also, never get between a cow and its calf.


Yep, only time a cow has chased me was when one was with a calf and although I thought I'd given them a wide enough berth mum thought otherwise!
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: barewirewalker on 15:50:18, 02/12/18
There are points missing that disturb me about this video, with the reservation that not having a fb a/c I do not know if the farmer's guardian have made other material of this nature. What is missing from it.
There is breed differential in temperament, this was recognised years ago when the legislation was framed about bulls and dairy breeds, this has not been revised, with the importation of many continental and other breeds, especially in relation to dual purpose breeds.

This leads to the need for more individual risk assessment, which would require stockmen posting information about the stock in the field, where there is a public right of way. So admitting to risk can be offset by assessing the risk and providing the means to minimize the danger.

Secondly, the need to provide secondary ways. Because of the CLA's position on allowing access, the suggestion that secondary ways is tantamount to admitting that landowners should offer voluntary routes across land.
By showing Y/stock they have shown only the obvious way that most are intimidated by inquisitive animals and how by turning on the herd their charge is immediately stopped, the greater underlying dangers are not admitted to, though these are extremely rare (probably), it is a recognition of the signs that they are there which would save lives. But by admitting to them, would demonstrate the state of denial.




Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: gunwharfman on 17:08:08, 02/12/18
I got between a cow and a calf in 2015 and she charged, biffed me straight in the chest and I ended up in a field about 6 or 7 feet down a grassy bank on my back like a turtle! She didn't follow through luckingly and I lived to tell the tale!
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: Murphy on 07:44:30, 03/12/18
"Sound advice. Just walk past them and ignore them works fine"[/size]

[/size]
I would say, yes most of the time, but there is a caveat - do not be fooled, and don't create a false sense of security.[/size]
This topic as the title suggests "Cow Discussion - again." comes up often, is discussed in other forums and walking mags
and the advice is always the same - wide berth.  Speaking as one who has been seriously injured by cattle and an experienced walker
walking past them and ignoring them does not always work fine. 
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: Lakeland Lorry on 07:59:12, 03/12/18
I've been chased by cows, with and without calves in the herd, a few times and now I give them a wide berth.   


Myself and a friend even ended up jumping in a river to get away from two young frisky cows (bullocks, or whatever they were) that charged us.   Shouting loudly at the cows, whilst holding up a pair of walking poles to make ourselves look bigger, didn't stop the thing from going for us, so our only escape was the river.


There are some interesting stories of incidences with cows on this website:


https://killercows.co.uk/



Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: ninthace on 09:12:19, 03/12/18
Mrs N is sometimes attacked by cows but I’m not. The odd thing is it happens when we are out walking together and usually involves young cows or bullocks.   I say they are curious or boisterous, she says they are attacking and would run away if I didn’t stop her. With cows and calves, I say that mum is keeping an eye on us, she says she is about to launch an attack and we need to retreat.  Either way it usually ends in acrimony for at least another field while we argue who was right.
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: pauldawes on 09:56:04, 03/12/18
One of those areas where I'm more cautious than i used to be.


Yes, we (nearly) all know that the standard package of advice ("keep calm, walk slowly, don't come between cow and calf, etc, etc) works 99.99% of the time.


Great odds...if you're not the one in 10,000 that gets the serious injury.


I think some of the "modern" breeds are a wee bit more aggressive than in days of yore. And generally...any large animal, even farm animals..are potentially dangerous.


Its not effected my walking to any real extent, but if walking a new area I do come across a field with large animals in I'll probably have a quick scan to see if any sensible route can avoid them completely, quick exit points if I go into field, etc.
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: Lakeland Lorry on 11:16:32, 03/12/18
The following has just popped up on my FB page:


Fatal injuries in agriculture, forestry and fishing in Great Britain 2017/18

Being injured by cattle is the biggest killer in agriculture.


http://www.hse.gov.uk/agriculture/resources/fatal.htm?fbclid=IwAR1-6BIdfZQA4i5DTK1RwJsX6WIxcFS5A3OQvVViMwVv7FibPjJ6RfPgAaU (http://www.hse.gov.uk/agriculture/resources/fatal.htm?fbclid=IwAR1-6BIdfZQA4i5DTK1RwJsX6WIxcFS5A3OQvVViMwVv7FibPjJ6RfPgAaU)



Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: ninthace on 11:39:17, 03/12/18
The following has just popped up on my FB page:


Fatal injuries in agriculture, forestry and fishing in Great Britain 2017/18
Being injured by cattle is the biggest killer in agriculture.


http://www.hse.gov.uk/agriculture/resources/fatal.htm?fbclid=IwAR1-6BIdfZQA4i5DTK1RwJsX6WIxcFS5A3OQvVViMwVv7FibPjJ6RfPgAaU


This report covers agriculture, forestry and fishing.
A total of 8 people were killed, 5 by cattle and 3 by bulls.  Most of these are agricultural workers rather than the general public.  4 members of the public were killed in the last year, 2 adults, 2 children - this is from all causes in agriculture, forestry and fishing.   In the longer term, over a five year period, moving machinery is the major cause of death, livestock are the second cause.
Given the numbers of the public out walking, staying on or visiting farms or enjoying the countryside, I reckon getting to your walk and just walking are probably far more risky than an encounter with a cow.
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: April on 13:37:46, 03/12/18
Speaking as one who has been seriously injured by cattle and an experienced walker walking past them and ignoring them does not always work fine.

I hope you have recovered now Murphy  :(

I totally agree with what you say about ignoring them does not always work fine.

I've been chased by cows, with and without calves in the herd

I/we have been chased by cattle, except never with calves in the herd. The last time we only just managed to get over a stile before charging, roaring bullocks reached it. They would have hit us, I have no doubt about that.  I know the difference between curious cattle and aggressive cattle; I have over 40 years experience walking through fields of cattle, most of the time they have no interest in you, sometimes they are a bit curious, very occasionally they can be very aggressive.

I don't like the implied nuance in the video (and in some of the comments on here!) that any incident is likely to be the walkers fault/perception and not the cow/bullocks fault. I echo Paul Dawes' comments, 99.9% of the time you can pass cattle with no incident but there are other times when people get seriously injured - and it is not their fault! Perhaps the man in the video should make a video about how to deal with aggressive cattle that are on the attack?
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: RogerA on 17:33:48, 03/12/18
I dont like cows - I get nervous of horses - I really dont like farm dogs at all.
It dosent stop me walking past any - the only ones I've had problems with are farm dogs
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: fernman on 17:52:00, 03/12/18
This might be an appropriate moment to ask how "safe" - or not - the black Welsh highland cows are?

I've encountered plenty of them up in the hills when I've walked in Snowdonia, and they appear to be pretty docile, even a bit timid of humans, but given my general mistrust of cattle I still give them a very wide berth.

Has anyone had any problems with this particular breed? Are there any "locals" on here with experience of them who can confirm one way or the other whether I can trust them or not?
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: Dyffryn Ardudwy on 18:22:30, 03/12/18
Ive never had much issue with cows, its the bullocks i find very intimidating and very unpredictable.
Cows are usually quite docile, and if you do not alarm them, or scare them by making unnecessary noise, then they usually leave you alone.
Many years ago, whilst living in South Wales, i almost came to grief with a large herd of bullocks, who started to gallop at some speed towards me, when i was already in their field, and when i had reached the safety of the bridleway gate, they were still in a very frisky state.


As for farm dogs or guard dogs in general, some years ago near Hirwaun in the South wales valley's, i visited the large car scrap merchants looking for a spare part for my Escort.
The two alsatians in the Ford Transit, were mental with rage, the van was physically moving when they sensed my presence, give me a field full of frisky cows any day, very scary. :o

Its horses i distrust the most, and if your in a field with a stallion, then you have to be constantly vigilant. :-\

Daft as it might seem, i usually make a detour around a field full of cows or horses, and if that detour is a lengthy one, so be it.

Cows can easily outrun a fit walker, so better to be safe than sorry.
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: Murphy on 07:47:22, 04/12/18
Thank you April.  I am fine now - but cattle fear remains.  To concur, 99% of the time they will ignore you, but I guess it is a matter of averages - the more walking you do through farmland/cattle, the higher the percentage of finding a "rogue" cow or herd.  I think it is dangerous territory to advise that cattle will always ignore you if you walk through them calmly, or do this or do that - the fact is it only takes one time.  Caution should ALWAYS be advised.   I have had too many close shaves, and a much closer shave on an occasion I choose to forget, and no there were no calves involved, and no there were no dogs, and no I was not at fault.  I guess the vet who was killed whilst walking on the Pennine Way at the High Cam Road to Hawes a few years ago was experienced with cattle, yet she was a victim of a rogue cow.........so  those of you who have not been affected do not advise it is always OK because the fact is it isn't.  I balance that with trying not to scaremonger because I do accept that most of the time it is, but please the advice should be  "always beware......"
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: richardh1905 on 07:56:00, 04/12/18

Cows are generally OK as long as they are not with young calves - in which case avoid. Young bullocks can be frisky, but I've never really felt threatened.

But I avoid all cows when I am walking with the dog. Advice to dog owners is to let go of the lead if cows do come for you - the cow will chase and fail to catch the dog, whilst you make your escape.
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: Lakeland Lorry on 08:17:08, 04/12/18
I guess the vet who was killed whilst walking on the Pennine Way at the High Cam Road to Hawes a few years ago was experienced with cattle, yet she was a victim of a rogue cow.........


We were possibly the last people to speak the vet who was killed on the Pennine Way in 2009.   Myself and three friends were walking up the Pennine Way from Gayle, and said hello to a woman who was walking down from the direction of Ten End, back to Gayle, with two dogs.   Although we hadn't seen any cattle in the field on our way up, it's possible that they had been hidden over the brow of the hill.   We heard the awful news later on that day.


https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/mystery-of-why-herd-of-cows-killed-animal-loving-vet-1-2298025



Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: fernman on 09:47:16, 04/12/18
Young bullocks can be frisky, but I've never really felt threatened.

A public footpath I wanted to follow crossed a field with a large group of young bullocks that were rushing around making roaring noises and jumping up on each other. You'd have felt threatened then! I found another route.

Still hoping someone might answer my earlier query about the black Welsh highland cattle.
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: barewirewalker on 09:53:30, 04/12/18
This might be an appropriate moment to ask how "safe" - or not - the black Welsh highland cows are?
from my animal husbandry lectures of more that 50 years ago, perfectly safe but a lot of water has flowed under many bridges since then. A lot of changes have happened and perhaps those, who should have been monitoring these changes, are in denial.

I organised the horse parade at a major 2 day county show for 45 years, the horse parade preceded the cattle parade and each year the stewards involved would meet socially before and after. I had known many involved since childhood. I was able to listen into remarks about animal behaviour both on the record and off the record.

Since I started walking, I realise a lot of changes have taken place in the countryside. There is a greater need for people to be be given more access to the countryside, the reasons are both social and economic, there are an abundance animal control techniques available to stock-men to mitigate the dangers inherent in mixing livestock with people, who are just visitors to the countryside.

The occupiers of countryside must recognised the value of access and remaining in denial of simple safety procedures that other industries now accept as commonplace is folly.

At the risk of some saying, "Here he goes again". The root of the denial is within the identity of the 'landowner', it is historical, it is embedded and sadly it is becoming merged with agricultural practice.

The quote above means that crossbreeding can alter the breed characteristic, which will not always be visible to the untrained eye. 
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: Dyffryn Ardudwy on 10:18:40, 04/12/18
The Welsh Blacks are pretty docile, as the farmers above Dyffryn have a fair number of them, that seem to congregate around the lower pastures below Moelfre.
Once or twice there have been some very spectacular Bulls, amongst the herd of cows, and they look very intimidating, but hardly give you a second look.
Welsh Blacks appear to be very laid back, but i suppose if there were calves amongst the cows, it may be a different matter.
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: barewirewalker on 10:35:47, 04/12/18
Just interrupted by a facetime call with grandaughter, but there are a couple of developments in agricutural practice that have struck me as pertinent to this subject.

I have repeatedly pointed out the gradual increase in single suckler herds over several decades, the management of which was glossed over when I studied herd management, because they were considered uneconomic, multiple suckler herds were considered the future. Back in those days more dehorning was practiced routinely, it was only lazy, slovenly management that resulted in horned cattle, conservation and other issues have given to a rise in horned cattle.

Now I believe the combination of horned cattle within the environment of a single suckler herd could have altered behavioral characteristics. If you link this to the reduction in managerial contact with individual animals and daily contact of stockman with his herd then you may see that there is a link, where risk assessment is could be negligent.


Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: fernman on 10:54:25, 04/12/18
Thanks to both of you, BWW and DA.
There was an occasion when I had to pass through a farmyard gate with a Welsh black standing on one side of it and a calf on the other side. I was ready to defend myself with the point of a walking pole if necessary, but not an eyelid was batted.
On the other hand I have witnessed how nimble they can can be, I've seen ones run effortlessly up very steep banks a darned sight quicker than I would be able to on the level, and I remain very unsure about them. There is certainly a "reduction in managerial contact with individual animals and daily contact of stockman with his herd" in the case of these animals who spend their time up in the mountains.
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: barewirewalker on 12:44:08, 04/12/18
The reason for de-horning was occupation of space at feeding troughs, if you watch cattle feeding you may understand that some movement of the head is not necessarily aggression may even be affection, cattle movement within the herd-space could be risky for someone within that space,

It is enclosed spaces that farmers usually get injured. I once had a length conversation with a farmer on land above Llanbister, I mention my suspicions regarding the Limousin and Lim X, he then gave me a horrifying account of an encounter that he was lucky to escape with his life.

I later read online a supposed learned text by a vet stating that any fears of specific breed aggression was unfounded and there was no evidence to support it. Is this based on reliable screening of accident reports or has it been pressured by the wish to play down the need to do risk assessment on individual animals?

Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: ninthace on 12:50:59, 04/12/18

We were possibly the last people to speak the vet who was killed on the Pennine Way in 2009.   Myself and three friends were walking up the Pennine Way from Gayle, and said hello to a woman who was walking down from the direction of Ten End, back to Gayle, with two dogs.   Although we hadn't seen any cattle in the field on our way up, it's possible that they had been hidden over the brow of the hill.   We heard the awful news later on that day.


https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/mystery-of-why-herd-of-cows-killed-animal-loving-vet-1-2298025 (https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/mystery-of-why-herd-of-cows-killed-animal-loving-vet-1-2298025)


That was a tragic incident.  According to reports, she entered a field with cows who had just had their first calves with 2 dogs which were running free.  The speculation was that the cows attacked her dogs and she tried to protect them.
The findings from the inquest are here.
https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/4582835.Vet_not_trampled_to_death_by_cows/
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: Jac on 13:20:42, 04/12/18

from the link above;
“The post-mortem examination shows that Miss Crowsley had no broken bones. She had three deep cuts and bruises to her scalp, and bruises to her extremities and torso."
“But the actual cause of death was postural asphyxiation, which could have been caused when she fell against the wall.”



I find it interesting that the injuries identified lead to a 'not trampled' verdict. I would have thought such injuries could easily have resulted from the cattle barging/shoving/pushing/pressing her up against the wall. Whether the dogs returned and remained with her or not is unclear from the report. What is clear is that she was upright with her back to the wall and was fending off the cattle immediately before becoming collapsed by the wall with injuries that sound unlikely to have been caused by falling to the ground by the wall and was unable to rise.
Not actually trampled perhaps but surely due to the action of the cattle whether due to their reaction to the dogs or not.
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: ninthace on 13:56:26, 04/12/18
from the link above;
“The post-mortem examination shows that Miss Crowsley had no broken bones. She had three deep cuts and bruises to her scalp, and bruises to her extremities and torso."
“But the actual cause of death was postural asphyxiation, which could have been caused when she fell against the wall.”



I find it interesting that the injuries identified lead to a 'not trampled' verdict. I would have thought such injuries could easily have resulted from the cattle barging/shoving/pushing/pressing her up against the wall. Whether the dogs returned and remained with her or not is unclear from the report. What is clear is that she was upright with her back to the wall and was fending off the cattle immediately before becoming collapsed by the wall with injuries that sound unlikely to have been caused by falling to the ground by the wall and was unable to rise.
Not actually trampled perhaps but surely due to the action of the cattle whether due to their reaction to the dogs or not.
No question the cattle caused the death whether they knocked her against the wall or she stumbled.  The injuries support a not trampled verdict and she was not even trampled post mortem.  It may be that once she collapsed the dogs ran away and the cows no longer felt theatened as the dogs were found at some distance from the body.  A major contributing factor was the act of entering a field of cows and calves with 2 free running dogs.  The report says the dogs were "devoted to her" so it is likely that they would have run to her for protection and that she would have defended them with her stick which was found broken at the scene.
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: pauldawes on 15:34:01, 04/12/18
Just back from a walk with my eldest sister, I told her "there's an interesting thread on cows and walkers...", and we discussed a bit.


She said she was always pretty relaxed about milking herds, more cautious with suckling herds.


On dogs (I'd forgotten what a difference they make, because not had one for over 30 years) she said she usually picked hers up when walking through fields with cows in, and cows behaviour changed almost as soon as they she did that...it was like throwing a switch to make them less feisty. Not an option with one of the larger breeds of dog...


I saw BBW's point about most injuries occurring in confined spaces..and that's exactly what happened to one of my nepews lads (bad arm break when he was working with a herd getting them ready for inoculation), and long ago my neighbour got kicked through the air when milking. Not too bad...till he hit the shed wall, he oft-times jokes.
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: Murphy on 18:56:25, 04/12/18
I repeat- I had no dogs, there were no calves...........I'm lucky I am here! You just never know.......

Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: April on 19:19:36, 04/12/18
I am fine now - but cattle fear remains

I am pleased you are better now Murphy. I couldn't agree more with all you have wrote on here. None of the times when I have had problems with aggressive cattle involved dogs or calves. Cattle are unpredictable and can be dangerous. I wonder how many incidents with cattle go unreported?
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: pauldawes on 20:01:59, 04/12/18
I repeat- I had no dogs, there were no calves...........I'm lucky I am here! You just never know.......


I’ve also had a couple of unpleasant experiences with cows and bullocks when no dogs were involved...I was just “saying” that I think the presence of dogs makes “feisty” behaviour more likely.
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: ninthace on 21:08:06, 04/12/18

I’ve also had a couple of unpleasant experiences with cows and bullocks when no dogs were involved...I was just “saying” that I think the presence of dogs makes “feisty” behaviour more likely.
  That is certainly true.


I still think the guidelines are sensible.  No dogs, move slowly and calmly and stay well out of the herd space.  That seems to work for me even with cows with calves.  If I find the cows stood in the gateway I want to walk through I gently "press" the herd from one side.  I have come across cows in confined spaces, the worst was a whole herd that had strayed onto a disused railway line.  They walked in front of us until they came to a gate across and had nowhere to go.  We went well to one side and pressed them until they fled by us on the other side of the track.  A lot of mooing and galloping but no attempt to attack.
With bullocks and young cows life is more interesting.  I have been chased on more than one occasion but I have refused to run away and while they have come to within a few feet with a lot of frisking about, they have never pressed it home.  The worst occasion was entering a field just after a mountain biker had been through - he said he thought he might have "stirred them up a bit"  When I entered they were very excited and wanted to play some more,  They were determined to get behind me so I spent a fair bit of time spinning round as I walked across the field but by the far side they thought I was pretty boring and wandered off.  A similar thing happened a few weeks ago with young cows.  As we entered the field they ran up to us and formed a huddle a few feet away but I talked to them quietly and again they only followed us for a while before stopping.  Young beasts aren't so much bad as bored.


Last year in the Alps I came across the ultimate in awkward cows,  It was stood across a path with a slope on one side and a drop on the other - there was no way by at all.  I asked nicely in English and German.  I shoved the blunt end and the horny end to no avail.  I did offer to use the pointy end of my pole but Mrs N said no.  Eventually it ran out of grass and moved off.
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: tonyk on 22:45:51, 04/12/18
 One method I have used when surrounded by bullocks is to stand completely still and keep very calm.After a while (up to 20 minutes) the bullocks calm down and might lick your leg but they tend to remain docile and eventually lose interest and wander off.The impression I got was that the bullocks forgot I was a person and started to treat me as an inanimate object.You never see a cow attacking a tree or fence but it might lick a tree and gently rub against it.They can be extremely gentle creatures if given a chance.
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: beefy on 14:34:24, 06/12/18
Cattle are unpredictable and can be dangerous. I wonder how many incidents with cattle go unreported?
Totally agree O0
Probably a lot go unreported, including incidents with other animals such as horses etc.

Before we recently had a couple of incidents with aggressive cows, I'd never had a problem with them,
However, now I've  encountered and seen them  behaving in an aggressive and unpredictable manner, (without being accompanied by the dog)
I will always be cautious, it's not always the way that we 
Behave, that influences the reaction of them,
It seems some people that haven't experienced this think there isn't a problem (including myself in the past)
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: jimbob on 15:57:31, 06/12/18
Farmers often carry feed to the fields for the stock. The stock get used to humans being associated with food. Very common with sheep. Cattle were usually taken into the hemels for winter. Now they stay outside a lot longer and get taken sacks of high protein food and the younger ones naturally run to the expected source of easy grub.   If they bump you , you're in trouble. Nothing to do with breed, in this case it's to do with greed.
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: Murphy on 20:24:18, 06/12/18
I’m struggling to understand why there are so many refusing to accept that cattle can be a serious issue and are trying to justify behaviour. Try being tossed in the air from behind just like a rag doll and then suffer the follow up action. Plus other run ins over recent years.  Perhaps I should have stood still for half an hour!  Just accept you need to be cautious because it may be you next time. 
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: jimbob on 20:28:12, 06/12/18
Just accept you need to be cautious because it may be you next time.
Not refusing to accept anything. Your last sentence is exactly the correct way to think on the problem , which for whatever reason  does exist. My friend a hill farmer all his life lost his leg from being trampled by beast he had reared.
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: Maggot on 22:23:17, 06/12/18
I’m struggling to understand why there are so many refusing to accept that cattle can be a serious issue and are trying to justify behaviour. Try being tossed in the air from behind just like a rag doll and then suffer the follow up action. Plus other run ins over recent years.  Perhaps I should have stood still for half an hour!  Just accept you need to be cautious because it may be you next time.


But cows have killed around 4-6 people a year, in 2017 1,793 people were killed on the roads in the UK, with an additional 170,993 very seriously injured.  I would be way more worried about driving to go for a walk than walking through a field of cows as someone said earlier.



Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: ninthace on 22:52:40, 06/12/18
Caution is the watchword indeed but don't let it become a thing or it will spoil your walking. The odds of being injured really are low but certainly not zero.  Every encounter is different.  I always watch beasts in fields like a hawk and try to read them.  Some need a very wide berth to the point of using dead ground if necessary, some can be approached freely; their bearing should tell you what's right but always keep your options open.

I have felt the sharp end of a cow.  I was taking a photo on a col with lots of placid cows that were well used to humans, too used as it turned out.  I had my back to one which was a couple of feet behind me when it decided I was on its lunch and nudged me out of the way with its horn - right up my backside.  I got the point and moved sharply but what really hurt was Mrs N laughing like a drain.
The only farm animal that has pressed home an attack on me was a cockerel who decided I was too close to his ladies and launched an attack.  I never saw it coming, the first thing I knew was a flutter and a stinging pain in the back of my thigh.  I have also been attacked by buzzards and gulls
My personal ranking of animal hazard in descending order of risk would be motorists on narrow lanes, birds (especially geese), dogs not under control (especially farm dogs), cows, horses and mountain bikers.  Above these in terms of injury risk, I would put loose and slippery rocks, greasy surfaces and barbed wire.
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: tonyk on 00:11:56, 07/12/18
I’m struggling to understand why there are so many refusing to accept that cattle can be a serious issue and are trying to justify behaviour. Try being tossed in the air from behind just like a rag doll and then suffer the follow up action. Plus other run ins over recent years.  Perhaps I should have stood still for half an hour!  Just accept you need to be cautious because it may be you next time.
  How did you end up in that situation in the first place,being attacked from behind? Its true you can't always see cattle in a field when entering but there are usually visible signs of cattle presence such as dung and footprints.Awareness is they key,not getting in desperate situations in the first place.
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: Murphy on 08:01:37, 07/12/18
I don't propose to prolong this threat unnecessarily, but just want to make it clear that it does not spoil my walking - indeed I am an experienced walker and backpack regularly.  I am well aware of the number of road deaths and don't compare this at all.  The point I was trying to was that it is not good to imply that "it will be fine" or if you stand still they will usually go away and so on.  There is a threat,  whether that threat is small or not and many incidents do go unreported.  My point is  to promote the "it will be fine approach is not good particularly as people look to this forum for advice.    As many have said, and what I am saying it is a case of beware.........as for getting myself in that position in the first place, what can I say but I didn't realise there might be cow dung or other signs of cattle in a field, I will look out for it next time! O0
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: April on 08:56:12, 07/12/18
I am very disappointed at some of the responses on this thread. I thought we were a caring community of walkers and hikers on here. You may not realise how your posts are coming across; not just the lack of empathy and understanding but the blaming and belittling of others who have had bad experiences with cattle. Perhaps your posts are not meant to come across as being a bit aggressive and mean?

But cows have killed around 4-6 people a year, in 2017 1,793 people were killed on the roads in the UK, with an additional 170,993 very seriously injured.  I would be way more worried about driving to go for a walk than walking through a field of cows as someone said earlier.

You might want to have a look at this
https://killercows.co.uk/facts-stats/cattle-attack-statistics-an-alternative-view/

We are more likely to be injured by cattle if you think about the numbers of car/bus journeys we have compared to the numbers of times we encounter cattle. How many other incidents or near misses go unreported?

Its true you can't always see cattle in a field when entering but there are usually visible signs of cattle presence such as dung and footprints. Awareness is they key, not getting in desperate situations in the first place.

I agree with some of this. However, knowing cattle may be in the field does not prepare you for an attack that we experienced. The cattle were unseen, there were a few cow pats about on the path. Being "aware" didn't really help in our situation. We were almost at a stile when some cattle came from the left, unseen until we heard them roaring. They were charging at us at full pelt. We managed to get over the stile and only just. They would not have been able to stop if we had stood still. They were on a steep slope coming down hill with 6 inches of mud underfoot. They tried to stop at the stile but couldn't. They skidded past it by about 6 foot, if we had took some of the advice on here to stand still they would have slammed into us even if they had wanted to stop before they got to us. So standing still would have been the daftest thing to do.

Cattle can be dangerous. Plain and simple. Most of the time however, cattle are fine but you never know how they may react to you. Nobody is saying it spoils their walking, it doesn't spoil mine either. But please do not blame walkers when they are attacked by cattle or belittle their experience.
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: happyhiker on 09:25:43, 07/12/18
On a lighter note, I was once in Devon and had gone out one evening to a vantage point to snap a sunset. Whilst waiting for that perfect moment, I sat on the top of a stile at the edge of a field of cows. After a while, a couple of curious cows came close enough for me to stroke their heads. Before I knew it, the whole herd were pushing each other out of the way to get their share of "affection".


I suppose I might have inadvertently increased the cows attraction to people, to the detriment of walkers using this path - never thought about it at the time - but it was amusing.


PS
Once had a strange experience with a farm dog. As I walked through a farm, this sheepdog came rushing out, barking, snarling, bared teeth etc. The full works. There was no one about. I felt sure the dog was going to attack me. I had nowhere to go and obviously could not outrun it. Running would only have made things worse anyway. In the sternest voice I could muster, I ordered the dog to sit, which it promptly did! It didn't bother me after that.
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: tonyk on 21:07:45, 07/12/18
I am very disappointed at some of the responses on this thread. I thought we were a caring community of walkers and hikers on here. You may not realise how your posts are coming across; not just the lack of empathy and understanding but the blaming and belittling of others who have had bad experiences with cattle. Perhaps your posts are not meant to come across as being a bit aggressive and mean?

 
Its certainly not my intention to blame or belittle anyone.The problem is we have all got different life experiences and handle situations in different ways.What works for one might not work for another.
 Quote from a blog.
 https://www.lasikmd.com/blog/5-animals-worst-vision

 
 BullsThese animals may suffer more from an issue of psychology than vision impairment, but there’s a reason why bulls have acquired a reputation that they charge at the sight of red. Matadors in Spain have used decorative red capes for centuries to taunt raging bulls toward them in a thrilling feat of daring.
The catch is, bulls don’t really run at the sight of red. Discovery Channel explained that color isn’t important to a bull, but motion is. On an episode of the television show “Mythbusters,” multicolored flags drew no response from a bull when stationary. When the flags were shaken and moved, the bull responded to whichever was moving the most.
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: AFANASIEW on 21:59:47, 07/12/18
My problem is, what do you tell your nervous children about cattle? As they approach adolescence, you want to build their confidence so that they'll be able to go on walks with friends, so the temptation is to give the usual advice about staying quiet and calm, moving slowly, avoid getting between cow and calves etc but, while that nearly always works, I've seen some bizarre behaviour in both herds and individual cattle. For example, walking 20 yards ahead of a small group (wife, two children, brother-in-law), I passed the outlying members of a herd of cows with no descernible reaction from them but, when the following group passed by, the entire herd took fright and stampeded downhill, crashing through hedge and fence into the next, even steeper, field.Again with family, I've passed though a field of cattle uneventfully until, just as I was climbing over the stile into the next field, one cow went berserk and careered through the herd, rearing up to attack another cow.We've probably all been followed by curious, playful steers and turned round to discourage their interest, but there was one time when I was hobbling with hamstrings seized up through dehydration and proceeding so slowly that I was completely surrounded by the beasts, but a few surly 'Garns!' and extravagant gesticulations cleared a path before me.The advice has to be that, yes, you should be quiet and calm, but also be wary and, if you're at all unsure, have a swift exit strategy in mind. I've walked through hundreds of herds without fear and without harm, but always keep in mind that injuries do occur.
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: Maggot on 23:11:01, 09/12/18

You might want to have a look at this
https://killercows.co.uk/facts-stats/cattle-attack-statistics-an-alternative-view/ (https://killercows.co.uk/facts-stats/cattle-attack-statistics-an-alternative-view/)

We are more likely to be injured by cattle if you think about the numbers of car/bus journeys we have compared to the numbers of times we encounter cattle. How many other incidents or near misses go unreported?



A bloke who was attacked by a cow has spent his money hiring 'an expert' to crunch some data, do some jiggery pokery and come up with the result he wanted at the start!  Quelle suprise!


You do realise he quoted a figure which included reports of three deaths, which he said "had the potential to be fatal"?  If it killed you, it was fatal!
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: jimbob on 01:20:14, 10/12/18
Mmmm.
Didn't read it the way you do.
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: beefy on 08:48:36, 10/12/18

A bloke who was attacked by a cow has spent his money hiring 'an expert' to crunch some data, do some jiggery pokery and come up with the result he wanted at the start!  Quelle suprise!


You do realise he quoted a figure which included reports of three deaths, which he said "had the potential to be fatal"?  If it killed you, it was fatal!
Sorry,
I’m having trouble understanding the intention of your post,
How does it help the forum?
Are you saying there isn’t a problem with cows?
Or am I misunderstanding it?
Thanks
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: jimbob on 10:22:02, 10/12/18
Thanks Beefy. I also had a problem reading Maggots reply.
Where did the  article say anything about paid help?The bit about potential deaths covered ALL incidents and not just the three unfortunate fatalities.

The article is absolutely clear. Be careful around these large and unpredictable  beast. Most incidents go on unreported.
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: Murphy on 11:02:55, 10/12/18
Jimbob. Thanks. That’s all I was trying to say earlier in this thread but for some reason some don’t seem to accept it.
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: tonyk on 12:49:50, 10/12/18
 When you are being attacked by an animal statistics and being objective count for little.Its purely a matter of survival and often the subconscious takes over.Thankfully I have never been attacked by a cow but I have been attacked by a large dog.It resulted in me jumping over a 4ft high fence from a standing postion,something that  would normaly be way beyond my ability.All I can recall is a massive set of teeth coming through the door and then standing in the garden next door.
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: forgotmyoldpassword on 14:49:21, 10/12/18
When you are being attacked by an animal statistics and being objective count for little.Its purely a matter of survival and often the subconscious takes over.Thankfully I have never been attacked by a cow but I have been attacked by a large dog.It resulted in me jumping over a 4ft high fence from a standing postion,something that  would normaly be way beyond my ability.All I can recall is a massive set of teeth coming through the door and then standing in the garden next door.


Funny you mention that 'beyond your ability' reaction - I had a similar experience walking through a farmer's field with cows at the opposite side.  Half way across I noticed them in my peripheral vision, heading towards me at full speed.  Normally I wouldn't be too bothered but they seemed to be going at such a pace I made a split second calculation that they'd reach me before I got to the stile at the opposite side and decided to put a burst of speed on.   About 20 meters away they were still barreling towards me, I remember my hairs standing on end and I ended up climbing a 6ft stone wall with an absolute grip of iron in an instant, pulled myself up and rolled over the top .. straight into a barbed wire fence on the other side, which hurt.  The cows of course barreled in to the space I was formerly in and one jumped its front legs against the wall and stuck its' head over.  Felt like an over-reaction at the time, but over the next few years noticed a few 'walkers killed by cows' stories, it's more curiosity than viciousness from them of course, but as someone who often walks solo I'm always mindful to not walk through them without a plan to get out of there rapidly.  Even if an 'attack' isn't fatal, something of that weight standing on you is going to cause injuries which may not heal properly. 
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: pdstsp on 18:09:16, 10/12/18
While I was in hospital in 2014, recovering from the accident which, indirectly, led me to take up fell walking again after many years of cycle touring, I shared a side ward with a farmer who had been attacked by his own herd, leaving him with very serious brain injuries.  As a result of his experience, relayed to me by his wife, as he could no longer speak, I am very wary of cattle. 


I find, on the whole, cows are fine, but I keep a very careful watch on them and always have an escape plan.  I avoid fields of bullocks as they seem to me to be very unpredictable, even if not aggressive. [size=78%] [/size]
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: pauldawes on 18:37:51, 10/12/18
While I was in hospital in 2014, recovering from the accident which, indirectly, led me to take up fell walking again after many years of cycle touring, I shared a side ward with a farmer who had been attacked by his own herd, leaving him with very serious brain injuries.  As a result of his experience, relayed to me by his wife, as he could no longer speak, I am very wary of cattle. 


I find, on the whole, cows are fine, but I keep a very careful watch on them and always have an escape plan.  I avoid fields of bullocks as they seem to me to be very unpredictable, even if not aggressive. [size=78%] [/size]


Yes, that “even if not aggressive” is a good point...they are very large, very heavy animals...easy for them to cause serious damage with no ill intent whatever.


As I mentioned earlier in this thread I’m much more cautious when crossing field with cows in, than I was years ago.


This is something I discussed with a couple of nephews who regularly do farm work. I have expected them to tell me not to worry...but basically they both told me the same thing. “Don’t trust any large farm animal”.
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: April on 13:55:23, 11/12/18
You do realise he quoted a figure which included reports of three deaths, which he said "had the potential to be fatal"?  If it killed you, it was fatal!

I can't remember reading this? Where in the report was this?

The problem is (as pointed out in the link I provided) no full statistics are kept of incidents involving cattle.

Thanks to the others who have posted on here in a supportive way  O0

Murphy we are not alone, others feel the same way we do  :)

Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: Murphy on 19:42:10, 11/12/18
 O0  Thanks April.
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: barewirewalker on 12:20:06, 12/12/18
Farmers often carry feed to the fields for the stock. The stock get used to humans being associated with food. Very common with sheep. Cattle were usually taken into the hemels for winter. Now they stay outside a lot longer and get taken sacks of high protein food and the younger ones naturally run to the expected source of easy grub.   If they bump you , you're in trouble. Nothing to do with breed, in this case it's to do with greed.
Just a bit concerned when I read this, earlier in this topic I have mentioned the Limousin breed as a possible source of aggression, my own awareness by being told by cattle stewards at an Agricultural show and this being followed up many years later by the story of a welsh farmer practically being persecuted by one of his own cattle, until it cornered him in a shed and would have killed him had he not known of an escape route.
April has provided a very useful link (https://killercows.co.uk) however a quick read through this does show some of the weaknesses that are inherent in the understanding of this subject and they are multiple. So quick snap judgments and assertions based on a small amount of knowledge are not helpful.
There have been very great changes in the countryside over the last few decades, farmers are slow to respond because of the growth of the landowner interest in grass roots membership, so a lot of specific problems such as this are not being addressed as they should.
Back to the specific of breed difference, if farmers would be more open and encourage visitors to the countryside to understand the cattle that are there, then perhaps walkers may be more aware of the signs of risk but opening up this would put the onus of individual risk assessment per animal on the stockman.
Here is an interesting bit of information; How to Identify Limousin Cattle (https://www.wikihow.com/Identify-Limousin-Cattle)  but the quote above says something that might influence others not to look at cattle individually. For instance the Hereford breed passes on it's white face to its cross bred progeny and is a very placid breed, even the bulls are usually nice natured. Within the link above I read;
Quote
Limousins are also known for their excitable and high-strung temperament which makes it a breed not a favourite among producers who like calm, docile cattle. High-strung cattle make themselves very dangerous for producers to work with, but Limousin breeders have been working hard to cull out this bad trait
Now even if the trait is bred out of the pure bred cattle is this trait a recessive gene and thus can it reoccur in X breeds when it matches a comparable hereditary trait.

Now some time ago I recall reading something on line (I believe it was a link provided by Sussamb on a similar topic) where a vet had produced a report stating that the breed aggression in certain breeds is not proved. This where the disparity lies because as the website April's link points out there is flawed data collection in relation the incidents of injury.
The big risk for those seeking access to countryside is that this issue may be used to limit access rather than get to the root cause. Legislators and Local Authorities will probably follow the cheapest least confrontational option.
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: jimbob on 12:35:41, 12/12/18
No matter how much you want to blame Landowners, I stick with many, many years of knowledge. If they get you you're in trouble, So be wary at all times.My last word on this particular subject, these are very large beast, treat them with due care and attention.
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: barewirewalker on 13:40:58, 12/12/18
It is not a case of blaming landowners, if we want to understand the underlying causes then it is necessary to identify the interests of the different parties.

As a farm manager I bred and milked daily a variety of cattle breeds. Bred both pedigree sheep and commercial fatstock, with some experience of flying flocks. From your many many years of experience, have you noticed, the current trend to grass fed beef is reducing the daily high protein rations being fed. Also the actual relationship of human contact with cattle was infinitely greater, when cattle went into cowsheds to be secured by neck chains on a daily or twice daily basis.

Now this was done before the days that the term 'Risk assessment' became a managerial norm, but temperament of individual animals was known and dealt with in a manner appropriate to the times.

Members of the public are not made aware of how important their observations are and this is because there is the massive reduction in the rural population, who work on the land. Landowners would prefer that they are not there and this is because of self interest unrelated to agricultural production. So they repress any collection of data that might jeopardize their self interest and might be of benefit to the workers in the rural enterprises as well as visitors.

More could be done in stock management to safeguard visitors, why not create safe zones around entry/exit points, temporary fencing equipment is light, effective and very mobile. Risk management has advanced beneficially in so many other endeavors, so why is it not advancing in the countryside without penalizing the visitor. Is it the interests of the agricultural producer or is it the interests of the landowner that is the root cause?

I think it is necessary for both organizations, which represent each separate issue to come clean.
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: Murphy on 15:19:36, 12/12/18
Quite honestly I couldn’t give a monkeys what breed, what feed, who owns land or anything else for that matter. Fact is simple be aware, be safe and be careful around cattle. End of story!
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: jimbob on 15:39:33, 12/12/18
Quite honestly I couldn’t give a monkeys what breed, what feed, who owns land or anything else for that matter. Fact is simple be aware, be safe and be careful around cattle. End of story!

 O0 O0 O0 O0 O0 O0 O0 O0 O0 O0 O0 O0
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: barewirewalker on 16:24:28, 12/12/18
And I give monkey's because the OP was about a Farmers' Guardian link that is supposed to advise walkers how to walk safely in fields with cattle. Then April supplies a very valid link to a website that is trying to collect information on experiences to do with this subject. The better informed contributions are, may make them more valuable if they contain critical content, which seems to be deliberately left out of the safety advice supplied.
eg. much of which has been raised by posts on this topic.
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: beefy on 07:43:30, 19/12/18
A bull this time
“The experienced farmer "understood" cattle and was safety conscious around them, the court heard.”[/color][/font]
“[size=1rem]Cattle can be unpredictable but this breed of cattle are normally quite docile and easy to handle."[/size][/color][size=1rem] [/size][/color]



https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=i&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwj3k-jpsavfAhVTuHEKHWPEAfIQzPwBegQIARAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fuk-england-sussex-46610623&psig=AOvVaw21p_zjayejoEJVpXtRv84G&ust=1545291569400416 (https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=i&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwj3k-jpsavfAhVTuHEKHWPEAfIQzPwBegQIARAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fuk-england-sussex-46610623&psig=AOvVaw21p_zjayejoEJVpXtRv84G&ust=1545291569400416)
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: tonyk on 09:44:55, 19/12/18
 From the article ""Something like this is extremely rare but you are dealing with normally domesticated wild animals and everyone who does the job that Steven did knows there is a risk."
 Does such a thing actually exist? A wild animal never loses its base instincts and one of those instincts is to kill to survive.
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: barewirewalker on 11:25:26, 19/12/18

Cattle can be unpredictable but this breed of cattle are normally quite docile and easy to handle.
I clicked on the link and was re-directed. This sentence was not in the article I read. Question was the breed of cattle actually stated? Where they black Limousin? (Black well muscled cows in the photo as the article describes the cows were moved to different field)

The description of the bull after the event is curiously similar to a quote I got from Wikipedia on the breed description of the Limousin cattle.

Quote
Limousins are also known for their excitable and high-strung temperament which makes it a breed not a favourite among producers who like calm, docile cattle. High-strung cattle make themselves very dangerous for producers to work with, but Limousin breeders have been working hard to cull out this bad trait

Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: Jac on 11:40:17, 19/12/18

The cattle were Aberdeen angus and there were cows and calves in the field too. I suppose it's possible that it wasn't actually the bull that caused his death but a cow and calf situation leading to herd unrest and the bull being implicated by being found near him. No-one will ever know the exact story.
Link to details of the breed involved
https://www.farminguk.com/News/64-year-old-farmer-trampled-to-death-by-his-own-cattle-police-say_50017.html

Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: barewirewalker on 12:43:23, 19/12/18
Thanks Jac, interesting to read that. The Aberdeen Angus is a much smaller breed than the Limousin, the black Limousin is probably quite rare in the localities that are my usual walking but this has got me thinking. If the herd were not pedigree there would probably be little proof that a black Limousin had not been used at some time to muscle up a commercial line of Angus. Quite possible the farmer himself would be unaware of a bit of genetic jiggery pokkery along the line.
Having been involved with pedigree stock breeding, though many years ago, the commercial strains were often little bit iffy.
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: beefy on 16:14:39, 19/12/18
I clicked on the link and was re-directed. This sentence was not in the article I read. Question was the breed of cattle actually stated? Where they black Limousin? (Black well muscled cows in the photo as the article describes the cows were moved to different field)

The description of the bull after the event is curiously similar to a quote I got from Wikipedia on the breed description of the Limousin cattle.
Try clicking on "more on this story"

Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: Toxicbunny on 22:40:49, 06/01/19
No matter how much you want to blame Landowners, I stick with many, many years of knowledge. If they get you you're in trouble, So be wary at all times.My last word on this particular subject, these are very large beast, treat them with due care and attention.

I totally agree. Cows are very unpredictable. I avoid them if they are close in the field. The farmers where I live won't even turn their back on them. The video is all well and good but it depends on the breed , are they use to people do they have calves. I've been chased by cows and bulls on more than one occasion and I detour around them. Around 55 people are killed every year by cattle you never turn your back on them like in the video.
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: tyreon on 19:32:18, 07/01/19

I'm not too sure how quickly I could cover a field theseadays. I'm very wary/suspect of cows. Many experiences.


Some years back(and still with fairly decent walking legs),I was thinking of carrying some air horn that I could discharge should too familiar cows appear threatening.


What would happen if you discharged an unloaded gun? I am thinking of the sudden retort. Would the cattle stop, then retreat and stampede?
I think some such device should be considered.


I was stopped from walking the Glyndwyrs Way(spelling?)some years back. Too scared because of threatening cattle and walking limitations. You don't have to look that far back to see one farmer putting a bull in a field that killed a walker cos he didn't like walkers. Was it the NFU or his good defence attorney that had the prosecution case dismissed.


Yes,some very good farmers. And some barstewards.


And who knows how cattle are being bred theseadays.


Alas,you have to look after yourselves thesedays. Anyway you can.
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: tyreon on 19:51:42, 07/01/19

As a PS.


Are there any records of any farmers convicted for causing harm/death to any walker by way of aggressive cattle or somesuch?


Where's the RA in this?


My bet would be with any farmer v rambler as any conviction would have guilty farmer rebuked or fined a maximum 10k for a killing. And compo? Would you or your partner be happy with 6k? If they were in a box or wheelchair?


Shish. No wonder the young stay at home getting fatter on their X boxes!

Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: Toxicbunny on 20:29:38, 07/01/19
As a PS.


Are there any records of any farmers convicted for causing harm/death to any walker by way of aggressive cattle or somesuch?


Where's the RA in this?


My bet would be with any farmer v rambler as any conviction would have guilty farmer rebuked or fined a maximum 10k for a killing. And compo? Would you or your partner be happy with 6k? If they were in a box or wheelchair?


Shish. No wonder the young stay at home getting fatter on their X boxes!


I've never come across  a conviction only this https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-england-wiltshire-38209085.  Personally a lot of farmers are aware that cows cause a problem and put them out to graze across ROW regardless.
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: ninthace on 23:58:47, 07/01/19
That is bit a harsh  To be fair, it is their land from which they are trying to earn a living, not our playground.  In this neck of the woods, banning cattle from fields with RoW would have a major impact and certainly wouldn't improve the walker/farmer relationship which in turn could lead to more attempts to block or shut down paths.
It was only last month that I had to sit in my local and listen to a farming family talking about how some walkers that had entered a field with a loose dog and than fled leaving the gate open so the cows had got out into the lane.  If you have seen the lanes in Devon, that could have resulted in a serious accident involving injuries to both cows and motorists.
There are two sides to this argument.
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: barewirewalker on 12:36:36, 08/01/19
I agree with Ninthace that the attitudes expressed in the previous outbursts are too extreme, but his response is so placatory, as to be alarming, and too often expressed by the users of the countryside.
The land is a resource and as leisure is an increasing social and economic user of that resource, the occupiers, who cultivate, crop and raise livestock on that part of this resource that is soil must start to move with the times and realize that they each occupy a small part of the countryside that forms the entity that the leisure user needs.

An out date notion of 'freehold' has been claimed as a right by landowners, this has not been properly recognized by professional farmers, nor has the body that represents them taken on this responsibility.
Out bursts like those expressed will get more extreme if the root causes of these problems are not identified. I have tried to steer these arguments onto a more productive course, but have been criticized for this.

At a New Year's Eve dinner I was talking to a farmer's widow, she is now no longer farming and a keen golfer. There was a surprising amount of bitterness towards towards countryside visitors. She was happy to emotionally feed off such tales as related by Ninthace, her emotional animosity towards 'walkers' was surprising strong, though I don't think there had been a specific bad experience, other than perceived rudeness from local dog walkers. The root of this was money, not in lost production but the rental equivalent of outstanding mortgage and this relates into a landowner issue, because it was her sense of property that was at the core of the hostility.

What does this have to do with this topic? If there is underlying hostility, then the sympathetic understanding that should be present in Risk Assessment is possibly flawed.
If the same H&S scrutiny has been focused on these animal attacks, that most other professions and industries endure, then I think the farmers might be doing more.
If landowners were more open about sharing the countryside, then perhaps the dog walker's public nuisance might have been have been bought to book by a broader, more inclusive, countryside watch scheme.

For this to happen it is the Landowner and the Farming Lobbies, who need to become more honest. So don't go too easy on them.
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: ninthace on 16:51:27, 08/01/19
With a few exceptions (always in the more walker trafficked areas such as the Lakes and Dales), I have always been treated courteously by the people I meet working out in the countryside and would hate for anything to happen to prejudice this state of affairs.  I think that most landowners welcome, or at least tolerate, what they see as "proper" walkers who can be relied upon to observe the Country Code. What annoys them are the casual users who treat the country as some kind of theme park - dropping litter, leaving gates open, not keeping animals under control and generally behaving in a disrespectful fashion to what is, after all, somebody's home and livelihood.
A particular subset of these are dog walkers, especially in the country close to towns and villages, who see farmer's fields as areas where they can let their animals run free without picking up after them.  As my farmer friend said, that field is his cows' salad bar, not some stranger's dog's toilet (bringing it slightly back on track there :) ).
Our village is a case in point - at present the footpaths and the sides of the fields (which are not rights of way) are churned up for up to 2 fields out along the radial footpaths then, magically, nothing.  In the tourist season we also get a bumper harvest of crap apples hanging in the hedgerows and on the barbed wire that somebody, i.e. the landowner, has to harvest.
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: fernman on 17:08:32, 08/01/19
What annoys them are the casual users who treat the country as some kind of theme park - dropping litter, leaving gates open, not keeping animals under control and generally behaving in a disrespectful fashion to what is, after all, somebody's home and livelihood.
A particular subset of these are dog walkers, especially in the country close to towns and villages, who see farmer's fields as areas where they can let their animals run free

Witnessed this a few times today during a 7 miles walk in the Chilterns, dog walkers crossing pastures and going around the edges of crop fields where there are no rights of way. 
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: phil1960 on 18:02:52, 08/01/19
Going a little off topic but hey it happens doesn’t it  ::)  Only once have I ever come across a farmer/landowner that was hostile to our presence, but I suspect that person was hostile to everyone on their land and on a prow. I have spoken to many farmers on my travels, had some really good interesting chats too.On the subject of cows in fields, yes of course they need to be responsible in what they do, and so do we walkers, if there is a right of way we have the right to use it, but for me personally I do give cows a wide berth.
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: barewirewalker on 19:07:15, 08/01/19
When I was an active NFU member I was involved in a number of campaigns, I was one of the first to recognize and warn of the danger of the very light poly bag, to the ruminant and a potential to cause and kill by bloat. There was a national campaign targeted at litter in the hedgerows. Printed posters were distributed to branches and erected along roadsides.

That was all we had then but the coverage got some attention at  the time. The landowners are so busy thinking up reasons to keep people out of their countryside, that they miss the obvious. The responsible visitor vastly outnumbers the yob element, they are the ally, who could witness, record and collect evidence. This could be done electronically, most walkers carry mobile phones, if a scheme, whereby farmers fixed a QR code by a way mark, rather than encouraging the hedge cutter to chop it off. Walkers could collect and identify, who to contact along the way, they then have a pool of information dated and timed that could be called on if needed.

A scheme like this could encourage enlightened landowners to offer additional access to identifiable people, gain feed back on hospitality as well as a free security info.

I might even get a mobile phone to help work out how the scheme could work. Early notification of distressed livestock, even footage of aggressive behaviour before it causes a fatality.  ::)
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: Toxicbunny on 22:18:56, 08/01/19
Witnessed this a few times today during a 7 miles walk in the Chilterns, dog walkers crossing pastures and going around the edges of crop fields where there are no rights of way.


I always walk with my dog. If livestock are not under control like cows or horses I will go the safest route possible even if there is no rights of way.  I live in the countryside. One farmer near me has lots of grazing land yet he puts the cows with calves in the only field with a ROW . No warning signs up.even when a bull was in the field. In  todays news a woman was killed by cows. Whilst farmers do have to graze stock they need to remember the ROW were there long before them. I think personally stricter controls should be implemented. I've had to detour on many walks due to cows and some of my family were farmers. I won't take a chance with them. I can however understand landowners animosity towards walkers. I was walking on Saturday and the amount of idiotic dog owners are unbelievable. My dog is never off leash however I witnessed dogs off leash in sheep fields. These people give a bad name to walkers with dogs. Many don't pick up dog mess either which is dangerous on grazing fields.
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: fit old bird on 22:20:38, 26/01/19
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-FgJBuHTgGH0/XEocVymoJnI/AAAAAAAAupM/RconfU8RAo0lb7_VvPqQun3sMd6g64AlQCLcBGAs/s400/030.JPG)


Thank you for letting me pass through your field, they followed me to the gate.  Near Wirksworth on Thursday.


ilona
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: ninthace on 19:31:17, 29/01/19
Whatever you do, leave your trombone behind https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qs_-emj1qR4
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: BuzyG on 22:53:42, 29/01/19
Whatever you do, leave your trombone behind https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qs_-emj1qR4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qs_-emj1qR4)
That was rather random, as my kids might say. ;)
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: ninthace on 23:20:21, 29/01/19
YouTube also confirms cattle appreciate the saxophone and the accordian.  Perhaps we should all carry a musical instrument?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYngwgvvHu4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IypL_EcI9XE




Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: jimbob on 09:06:34, 30/01/19
YouTube also confirms cattle appreciate the saxophone and the accordian.  Perhaps we should all carry a musical instrument?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYngwgvvHu4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYngwgvvHu4)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IypL_EcI9XE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IypL_EcI9XE)
That reminds me of my Dad, he used to sing to the beast whenever he was working with them. My elder brothers picked up the habit too, it always seemed to calm the flighty stirks down a lot. Me, I just watch them carefully, I don't really fancy carrying my fiddle on walks in case I bump into a curious herd. They'd have finished me off by the time I got it out if the case. ;D If not, then certainly shortly after I started playing.  :-\
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: adalard on 10:54:49, 30/01/19
If I started trying to sing they'd probably trample me immediately...
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: barewirewalker on 12:19:30, 30/01/19
Used to milk cows to the strains of early morning BBC 2, seem to remember the cows taking a while to get use to Terry Wogan's selections, when he was new to the early morning program.
Glad I no longer have to calm cows with modern beat, and ready curdled yogurt flowing through the pipelines.
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: GinAndPlatonic on 12:28:40, 30/01/19
I havent got room for a trumpet in my bag..I will take a Kazoo with me when hiking round Dovedale next time...cows all over the show there..scary ones too :o
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: ninthace on 13:25:35, 30/01/19
I havent got room for a trumpet in my bag..I will take a Kazoo with me when hiking round Dovedale next time...cows all over the show there..scary ones too :o


This was easier when hiking in the good old days when Izal made loo paper and a gentleman always had a comb.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkGwVO6KuMI
The modern soft stuff is useless but I bet a plastic fiver would be a good substitute.
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: sparnel on 13:48:41, 30/01/19
I used to work on a dairy farm. It was a well known fact that music calmed cows down.
We always had a radio on during milking time. Try talking to inquisitive cows next time you pass them.......

Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: ninthace on 14:03:20, 30/01/19
I used to work on a dairy farm. It was a well known fact that music calmed cows down.
We always had a radio on during milking time. Try talking to inquisitive cows next time you pass them.......
...I didn't realise they were good conversationalists.
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: gunwharfman on 14:15:22, 30/01/19
I remember that paper, it was called Bronco! I grew up in an era when the advice was to use dock leaves!

I chanced on the Tony Robinson Coast to Coast prgramme yesterday, he and the farmer were surrounded by cows, they were stroking, patting, leaning on them, the cows had their young ones with them as well, not a twitch, it was all peace and harmony!
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: GinAndPlatonic on 14:22:07, 30/01/19

This was easier when hiking in the good old days when Izal made loo paper and a gentleman always had a comb.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkGwVO6KuMI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkGwVO6KuMI)
The modern soft stuff is useless but I bet a plastic fiver would be a good substitute.
Using Izal with a comb, was much less painful than using it for its intended purpose too.
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: jimbob on 14:38:36, 30/01/19
Using Izal with a comb, was much less painful than using it for its intended purpose too.
More memories :) San Izal! If you scrunched it up and rolled it around between your hands it could be tenderised enough, not to damage your nether region.
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: GinAndPlatonic on 14:40:33, 30/01/19
More memories :) San Izal! If you scrunched it up and rolled it around between your hands it could be tenderised enough, not to damage your nether region.
;D It was great to use as tracing paper though..as long as said drawing wasn`t bigger than a sheet.
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: ninthace on 16:42:20, 30/01/19
Great for its original purpose too when out hiking.  Water resistant, possibly washable although I never tried.  Economical too, you could write on both sides of the paper if necessary.  We used to get 3 sheets in a 24hr ration pack, enough for up, down and a polish.

As a student, I worked for the Royal Aircraft Establishment where it came on a roll with "Government Property" printed on the top and bottom of each sheet.  I never found out how they got the ink to stick to it because what was intended for surely wouldn't.  I presume it was to prevent it being nicked but who wants that much tracing paper?
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: AFOR on 22:26:17, 02/02/19
My wife and I are very wary of cattle by the very fact that they are big animals and we don't know what their temperament is like and indeed if they would chase us or not, I suppose because I'm not a farmer my ignorance should be bliss , however our view is if cattle are in a field and we need to cross we look for another field or another route, we have even turned back and abandoned the walk.


Because we are green walkers ( inexperienced) we are not sure where we stand when we go off the public right of ways and through farmers fields to avoid cattle , but I deem it as the lesser evil, unless of course an angry farmer shoots us !!!   
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: sussamb on 07:59:02, 03/02/19
You're allowed to detour off a ROW sufficiently to bypass an obstruction, so if you deem them an obstruction you should be ok.  Worse that can happen is that you commit a civil offence of trespass but I've never heard of a walker being in court for that offence  O0
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: Sonatine on 09:56:41, 03/02/19
You're allowed to detour off a ROW sufficiently to bypass an obstruction, so if you deem them an obstruction you should be ok.  Worse that can happen is that you commit a civil offence of trespass but I've never heard of a walker being in court for that offence  O0


I agree, better to be in the wrong and safe than right and injured. I doubt you'll encounter an issue if you take a reasonable detour.[size=78%] [/size]
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: Lakeland Lorry on 08:32:48, 11/02/19
This article was posted on the Farmers Weekly website on 29th January, but I've only just noticed it:


https://www.fwi.co.uk/news/walker-trampled-to-death-by-cattle-in-west-sussex?fbclid=IwAR1CP5ZyRhJ_zPLX45HLnS03vd_3GpniSUGArlx8FEbNligr3cDQtGZoObw



Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: fernman on 08:43:00, 11/02/19
Oh, if only all farmers followed the advice given at the foot of the article!
Title: Re: The cow discussion........ again
Post by: FTSTTLB on 11:46:54, 11/02/19
Gosh. It's only after a rather weird experience on Offa's Dyke that we started to read about the danger of cows. We had no problem with them before that. Now I think my fear of cows has surpassed my (moderate) fear of heights.