Tryfan - DofE expedition advice

[foggie]

My 16 yr old son is shortly on a 4 day DofE expedition. The DofE provider has given the group 30 minutes to plot a 4 day route.


On checking the route, one of the days sees the group are walking from Llyn Gwyant lake and then from east of Pen Y Pass along the Miners track heading towards Tryfan.


They are then continue up Tryfan south peak, along the Heather Terrace and then down via Tryfan Bach.


Bearing in mind that they are carrying 65L rucksacks, tents, Triangias, 4 days food, water etc do you consider this safe?


I don't know the route but from what I can see online they could easily get into difficulties on Tryfan, especially considering the weight they will be carrying.


Looking at the route, it would seem more sensible for them rather than going up the south face, to continue North along the track the runs east of Tryfan near Cwm Tryfan and then down via Tryfan Bach.


Please remember that whilst DofE expeditions are supposed to be in "Wild Country" that doesn't mean that they have to go over peaks. and so both suggested routes comply.


comments please, is the route safe considering the weight?


Thanks in advance

[Ridge]

I don't know the route at all but, having had both my kids do DofE I worry about them only being given 30 mins to plot a 4 day route in an area that they do not know. I am sure neither of mine have ever had this time pressure and, because of filling out the DofE route card it is quite a long winded process.


As this must be his gold expedition, being 4 days, what was his experience of bronze and silver and was it run by the same instructor?

[foggie]

For bronze & silver, two of us ran it. I think the two groups have good map reading skills etc. However, we don't have the resource to run gold so it's been outsourced to a commercial Gold provider.


I am hoping that the provider will re-route the youngsters once they look at the route as presumably they have used this area before. However from what I have read of Tryfan I'm not convinced it's a route to be walking over with that type of weight. And there's always that doubt that provider doesn't re-route them.


So I don't want to stir it up if I'm worrying without reason hence asking for more expert opinions.

[Ridge]

If you have run the bronze and silver then you will know way more about it than I do, I can only speak as an interested parent who has been quite heavily involved in some of the route planning at times.

[Dyffryn Ardudwy]

The Miners path behind the Pen Y Gwrydd hotel, can also be joined from behind Pen Y Pass Youth Hostel, but that route is far more boggy.
The Miners path is not that difficult to navigate through the heather hillside below the slopes of the Glyders, and the route towards Tryfan is an easy one to follow, a bit rocky in places, but very straight forward.

The approach to Tryfan from the Miners Path, is one of the easiest and safest routes up the mountain, one just crosses the style at the wall at Bwlch Tryfan, and then a clearly defined path can be navigated through the rocks to the summit.


The route to the top of Tryfan from Bwlch Tryfan, is the easiest way to the top, and is used by those in a hurry doing the Welsh 3000s route, as its by far the quickest and safest ways up the mountain.

You have no need to worry, as the Miners Path from above either Pen Y Pass or Pen Y Gwyrydd, is not difficult to follow, a bit of a trudge with a heavy back pac, but its one of the safest routes up to the Glyders in good weather, and even in poor conditions, the way is never in doubt.


Your son should have a wail of a time, and if its his first visit to Snowdonia, the route they have chosen is a safe and very dramatic one for a DofE course.

[foggie]

Thanks for the reply. Yes, they will be coming via Pen Y Gwrydd hotel and then on the Miners track.


It's not so much the Miners track that's of concern, it's more the route up Far South Peak and along Heather Terrace and then down to Tryfan Bach.

[Dyffryn Ardudwy]

I share your concern.
Personally i would not use the heather terrace route, as the possibilities of straying onto more challenging ground is more acute, but not knowing their capabilities or experience, my opinion may count for nothing.
From the Bwlch Tryfan side, Tryfan is amongst the easiest Welsh 3000er to scale, but the Heather terrace A5 side, is a more challenging situation, very straight forward for an experienced regular walker, but for possibly a young novice visiting Snowdonia for the first time, i am not sure.
Once i have conquered the summit of Tryfan, i would return to Bwlch Tryfan, and continue down the route past Llyn Blochlwydd down to Ogwen, that's the safest route that i would take.

Tryfan can be a very easy mountain to climb, or a difficult one, route choice is very important, especially when your carrying a very heavy load on your back, in possibly questionably poor weather.

[ljmeerkat75]

The miners track from PYG is easy to follow but can be boggy in the lower sections but the paths get a bit vague once you top out and head to the descent into Bwlch Tryfan if they don't have to go up the south peak or heather terrace heading over to the lower path towards Tryfan Bach is easier he could follow the path which is at the foot of the cliffs to the wall and stile and head down to Tryfan bach a little longer and some scree but easier to follow or cut across on a direct route to the path down, he would have a couple of small streams to cross though

[Jac]

The Miners path behind the Pen Y Gwrydd hotel, can also be joined from behind Pen Y Pass Youth Hostel, but that route is far more boggy.
The Miners path is not that difficult to navigate through the heather hillside below the slopes of the Glyders, and the route towards Tryfan is an easy one to follow, a bit rocky in places, but very straight forward.

The approach to Tryfan from the Miners Path, is one of the easiest and safest routes up the mountain, one just crosses the style at the wall at Bwlch Tryfan, and then a clearly defined path can be navigated through the rocks to the summit.


The route to the top of Tryfan from Bwlch Tryfan, is the easiest way to the top, and is used by those in a hurry doing the Welsh 3000s route, as its by far the quickest and safest ways up the mountain.

You have no need to worry, as the Miners Path from above either Pen Y Pass or Pen Y Gwyrydd, is not difficult to follow, a bit of a trudge with a heavy back pac, but its one of the safest routes up to the Glyders in good weather, and even in poor conditions, the way is never in doubt.


Your son should have a wail of a time, and if its his first visit to Snowdonia, the route they have chosen is a safe and very dramatic one for a DofE course.

I share your concern.
Personally i would not use the heather terrace route, as the possibilities of straying onto more challenging ground is more acute, but not knowing their capabilities or experience, my opinion may count for nothing.
From the Bwlch Tryfan side, Tryfan is amongst the easiest Welsh 3000er to scale, but the Heather terrace A5 side, is a more challenging situation, very straight forward for an experienced regular walker, but for possibly a young novice visiting Snowdonia for the first time, i am not sure.
Once i have conquered the summit of Tryfan, i would return to Bwlch Tryfan, and continue down the route past Llyn Blochlwydd down to Ogwen, that's the safest route that i would take.

Tryfan can be a very easy mountain to climb, or a difficult one, route choice is very important, especially when your carrying a very heavy load on your back, in possibly questionably poor weather.

I am very confused - two apparently contradictory posts from apparently the same person. 

[foggie]

The second group we have out, are walking more or less the same route, north from Pen Y Gwrydd hotel & Miners path.
But then after approx 2.5km (@ SH665 583) rather that continuing up far south Peak, they turn approx north, passing between Tryfan and Cwm Tryfan and then onto the Gwern Gof Uchaf campsite in the Ogwan valley.
This also complies with the DofE requirements but would seem a safer option. They aren't required to go up Tryfan, just navigate "Wild Country"


Is that a safer route?

[ninthace]

The second group we have out, are walking more or less the same route, north from Pen Y Gwrydd hotel & Miners path.
But then after approx 2.5km (@ SH665 583) rather that continuing up far south Peak, they turn approx north, passing between Tryfan and Cwm Tryfan and then onto the Gwern Gof Uchaf campsite in the Ogwan valley.
This also complies with the DofE requirements but would seem a safer option. They aren't required to go up Tryfan, just navigate "Wild Country"


Is that a safer route?

Certainly easier but not as much fun as the Heather Terrace route. Finding the start of the Terrace in poor weather has been known to be problematic but in good weather it is a great route. If they are tempted to summit Tryfan then the south ridge is the easiest way to do it but they would have to backtrack to cross over to find the start of the Terrace path and this is where parties have been known to go wrong and turn too soon. Ascending on the west side of the wall from Bwlch Tryfan and then turning at the Far South Peak in good weather should not present too much difficulty. Once on the Terrace, route finding is relatively straightforward. Last time I went that way we climbed the south ridge to the summit then descended to the Far South Peak and then followed the Terrace. My son-in-law had our grandson in a backpack seat throughout the trip so I don't see 65 litre packs presenting too much of a problem for fit teenagers.


IMHO they should go for it if conditions are good with the option to descend via Cwm Tryfan if visibility is poor - the path is relatively easy to follow.

[Pura Vida]

DofE Training, Supervision, Assessing at Bronze, Silver and Gold, from the New Forest to NY Moors is my dayjob in the Summer.


Your organisation has engaged an AAP (Accredited Activity Provider - Accredited by DofE HQ) to provide the organisation and delivery of this team's DofE Gold Expedition in N Wales.


Last year I supervised 4 teams planning their Gold Exped, in the Rhinogs, during a full school day and that wasn't long enough. There were equipment and resources issues but 30 mins, IMO, is not long enough. Even, being practiced with the eDofE mapping software (Based on the OS package), I think that I would struggle to plan a 4 day exped.


The routes will be reviewed by the Wales DofE panel but they won't comment on the choice of route. I know that as last year I was presented with a team's Gold route that planned to cross the middle of the Kinder Plateau, West to East, in a straight line. Those routes had been reviewed by the Peak Panel. The route was reviewed and changed by the team, under my supervision.


DofE make few hard specifications about the definition of the expedition and expect the organisers, AAP's, to provide Risk Assessments, AALA registration, staffed by ML's (or similar) thus providing a safe exped.


The last Gold Team that I supervised in N Wales had a day that followed the same routes as you have described. There are benefits to the team to cover the Heather Terrace but I would have made an assessment of their ability before they started it. My plan would be to meet them in the Bwlch Tryfan area and assess, weather, fitness, time etc. There are other options from there.


As a Supervisor the first time that I get to see my team's routes are when I meet them. Dynamic Risk Assessments start there. The Supervisor is the person who takes responsibility for the team's safety.


With a strong team, going well, in good weather conditions the route may be possible but there are other variables to consider. But I think that, for me, knowing that the routes had been prepared in 30 mins would start the alarm bells jingling. I'd be talking to the team and conducting a thorough kit check, as I always do, to start to build a picture of what may transpire and put plans in place to address any concerns.


Your options, I feel, would be to go into writing to the AAP, DofE Wales (based in Brecon), and DofE HQ in Windsor.


BTW it won't be me as Supervisor as I don't have any N Wales expeds this year.

[Dyffryn Ardudwy]

Dear jac

If you carefully read my post, it includes references to different sections on Tryfan, nothing contradictory at all.
The Heather terrace route faces the A5 on the Ogwen side, whilst the Bwlch Tryfan route on the mountain stands below the horrid scree path that decends down the side of Glyder Fach.

The Bwlch Tryfan route is by far the safest route up the mountain for a young person attempting the DofE scheme.

What most of us here on the forum are forgetting, is that we are experienced walkers, who would attempt just about any navigable route on Tryfan.

A group of teenagers, possibly walking in poor weather, need the safest route up and down Tryfan, and that's from Bwlch Tryfan, which has virtually little or no scrambling to do.

[foggie]

Thinks for the replies.


The group successfully completed and navigated on and around Edale & Kinder Scout including the plateau on their practice.
However, it will be their first time in North Wales and the Snowdon area, and apart from a bit of rain, haven't come across poor visibility etc......yet.
I do agree with the comments that you are experienced walkers and what you may assume relatively easy, 16 year olds whilst fit enough to walk the terrain and with exuberance of youth may just decide to carry on whilst experience would say to turn back. Through the DofE process they have been on an increasing level of both difficulty and duration, however it's another step up in this type of terrain.


Whilst the route prep was extremely rushed, the provider has already indicated that he will carry out risk assessment each day and change the route if required.
I have already raised my concerns with the provider over this small section of their four day route and whilst I didn't get much of a response, presumably on the day the route can still be changed. I will identify the area of concern to our DofE group.


As the provider only has two checkpoint people + assessor out covering two groups, for ease they may decide to keep both groups on one route.


Thanks for all the information 

[sussamb]

I am very confused - two apparently contradictory posts from apparently the same person. 

But a person known  to give ... ahem ... interesting 'advice'