Author Topic: IS NOW THE TIME TO COMPLAIN.............  (Read 1732 times)

barewirewalker

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2755
IS NOW THE TIME TO COMPLAIN.............
« on: 10:50:20, 22/03/18 »
IS NOW THE TIME TO COMPLAIN.............about our access to our countryside. Both the overall quantity and the quality.


Yesterday I met one of the Rights of Way Enforcement team in Lidl, she knew me from my time on the Local Access Forum, the name now changes to a grandiose title of The Great Outdoors Strategy Board, or some such nonsense.


She gave me some good news and some bad news, the good news is that Brexit means redefining the terms Single Farm Supplements are paid, which means that compliance can be altered to 'How Good a Citizen' your local landowner is. Don't be mislead these payments are for the betterment of agriculture, they go into the pockets or large landowners and they are just as eager to get their greedy, pudgy hand on them.


Non compliance has often been played down to appease the rich, powerful and wealthy, who occupy our countryside. It is probable that 2026 will pass by without the recovery of ways left off by the corruption of the definitive map, and then many seemingly useless lengths of RoWs will be the target to be eradicated.


Is now the time to show how the RoW network should be reinstated, how new ways can join up into a more effective network and how the road network has become a safety issue.


I rarely see an item raised by the lobby groups here on the News and Articles section of the forum relating to issues that would get the The Great Outdoors Strategy Boards and other successors of our Local Access Forums telling landowners that they should pay up as members of the human race.


Now I am not a member of the Ramblers, I joined the Ramblers Forum because I had been verbally abused by a landowner for being on a RoW. About 50 years ago I proposed and got passed a resolution on the Shropshire NFU's County Executive for the formation of an all party group to promote access in the countryside and even the CLA agreed, it was turned down by the Ramblers.


Now the CLA have a national policy on Access which is intended to reduce the amount of access to the countryside.


Off course no one takes any notice, I have just seen too much water pass under too many bridges.
« Last Edit: 11:08:25, 22/03/18 by barewirewalker »
BWW
Their Land is in Our Country.

Mel

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7741
Re: IS NOW THE TIME TO COMPLAIN.............
« Reply #1 on: 18:27:02, 22/03/18 »

All we need is an English version of this:


https://www.legislation.gov.uk/asp/2003/2/contents


That is all  O0
No expense spared in pursuit of a bargain ;)
https://snailspacewalks.blogspot.co.uk/

barewirewalker

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2755
Re: IS NOW THE TIME TO COMPLAIN.............
« Reply #2 on: 20:45:41, 22/03/18 »
The Scottish Land reform Act is of course the answer  O0 .


But how are people south or the border going to realise it.


Follow the money is always the answer, the evidence is there that access puts a huge revenues into the national economy. No one, in local gov.com has thought that it might be a good idea to measure it. It is an additional expenditure to do it.
BWW
Their Land is in Our Country.

Mel

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7741
Re: IS NOW THE TIME TO COMPLAIN.............
« Reply #3 on: 21:10:53, 22/03/18 »
I think passive resistance towards what you don't want and positive action on what you do want would work.


In other words, why waste time and energy fighting for the minutiae of opening/maintaining and rediscovering old rights of way, etc. if the bigger picture and main goal is access all areas?  Channel that passion and energy into what you DO want instead of fighting against what you're not going to get  :)





No expense spared in pursuit of a bargain ;)
https://snailspacewalks.blogspot.co.uk/

barewirewalker

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2755
Re: IS NOW THE TIME TO COMPLAIN.............
« Reply #4 on: 08:47:58, 23/03/18 »
Mel, I think the minutiae does matter. To build a case it is often necessary to discover fresh evidence or find ways to present the evidence already
already possessed in a different form. To air arguments in public invites criticism, if that criticism is valid, then a weakness is exposed and can be strengthened.
I mentioned meeting a rights of way officer in my opening post, what I have not enlarged on here, is my observation that many I have met are very sympathetic to the common cause here. They officially may have to be even handed, but the more we as users provide them with example, good reasoning and evidence, it helps them do the job more effectively.


It was a rights of way enforcement officer, who pointed me to the direction of the political reasons for many ways not being on the Definitive Maps of our counties over 10 years ago. He is definitely the most talented man is this field I have met and is now the head of his department and his opinions are now well bridled by his advancement.


It was his influence that triggered my coining the phrase 'The Corruption of the Definitive Map', which was the title of a topic on the old Rambler's forum. Has ranting about this been pointless? I think not because it has born fruit, the phrase now is used fairly widely and I have found it used by others, with no connection to myself.


Returning to the minutiae, we as walkers can explore the minutiae, by complaining about where we are not allowed to walk, is in itself pointless, to discover why we should walk, where we are not allowed and being able to express it, is to add reason to an argument.


The achievement of the Scottish Land Reform Act was helped by a very effective on line campaign based on baiting landowners and the cause of access to Munro's and other peaks.


We do not have such a plethora of recognizable objectives in this country to build a campaign on, but the landowners of this country make a myriad of valuable parts of our countryside off limits.


Should we as walkers be out finding them and collecting them to strengthen a case for fairer access to the countryside?
BWW
Their Land is in Our Country.

jimbob

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 940
Re: IS NOW THE TIME TO COMPLAIN.............
« Reply #5 on: 13:18:46, 23/03/18 »
I think that the bee buzzing in your bonnet detracts from your arguments.

Mel is correct. People, in general, support large ideas. They don't listen or care about the minutiae. Yes that is a stage which has to be covered, but do not lose support because of it.

Get people to support the big idea as they did in Scotland. As they did when Barbara Castle took part in the big trespass. I have said before organise yourself into similar newsworthy, yet peaceful, trespasses by walking the routes, getting others to walk them. Going on about  it to the already converted never helps, in fact it could alienate the very people you need help from the most.

As Mel says passion your time and energy into what you DO.
All else seems like you just have a good old fashioned chip on your shoulders.
Too little, too late, too bad......

barewirewalker

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2755
Re: IS NOW THE TIME TO COMPLAIN.............
« Reply #6 on: 14:28:06, 23/03/18 »
Have I told anyone that is now the time to complain, I asked a question, straight forward, no rhetorical inflection. This did because I was passing on some information have met a rights of way profession in the supermarket, who passed on some inside information, which hitherto has not been air on this forum.


I have no intention of organising a mass trespass, there is certainly no bee bussing in my head, like many pet subjects that get dragged onto this forum, with little connection with the sport we all share. My inside knowledge may be helpful to some. It has been in the past as I have been told this in PM's and other means. I have yet to unload a lot more factual knowledge and scandal so be prepared to be bored rigid.


Got to go, other things to do
BWW
Their Land is in Our Country.

Mel

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7741
Re: IS NOW THE TIME TO COMPLAIN.............
« Reply #7 on: 18:17:54, 23/03/18 »
Using words like “argument, criticism, exposing weakness, complaining, baiting” are all very negative and come across as rather antagonistic, and I personally don’t think are conducive to a positive desired outcome.
 
I go out walking to walk.  I find it relaxing.  I’m not going out “gathering evidence” of where I shouldn’t be walking. 
 
I would sign a document petitioning something akin to the SLRA but I truly do not believe pestering local parishes about accessing bits of land that have changed uses and ownership so many times since Christ was born is conducive to that bigger picture and ultimate objective.  Achieving that bigger picture and ultimate objective would render the localised “minutae” useless anyway.  Campaign to change the legislation and your own wishes will be granted.
 
Oh, and, BWW, perhaps you don’t mean it the way it’s coming across, but your posts do rather give the impression you have an angry bee in your bonnet.  I do find the information in your posts interesting (if not rather lengthy) and it can sometimes be difficult to whittle down what you’re actually talking about because you go off on so many tangents!  It’s almost like you’re diluting a subject you’re clearly passionate about with, well…. passion! 
No expense spared in pursuit of a bargain ;)
https://snailspacewalks.blogspot.co.uk/

jimbob

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 940
Re: IS NOW THE TIME TO COMPLAIN.............
« Reply #8 on: 20:32:29, 23/03/18 »
Mel your last paragraph is exactly how I read it. BWW, again Mel is spot on. Win the big battle, ELRA, consign the rest to learned historical documents.
Too little, too late, too bad......

barewirewalker

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2755
Re: IS NOW THE TIME TO COMPLAIN.............
« Reply #9 on: 12:02:17, 24/03/18 »
Argument in itself is not antagonistic, if that level is achieved it is ordered by turning it into debate. Argument (I would bow to another word that I might have missed) is the basis for advance learning, it is the current from which solutions can be found by reformation of ideas.


As I have lived closer to the community, who occupy our countryside, even sat in their inner circles, I may be more sensitive to the undercurrents and flow of ideas.


A chance meeting is the reason, why I started this topic, criticism, exposing weakness and complaining are just stepping stones toward agreement, I think we all may have seen these just recently in the reportage of the Brexit deal.


Baiting is out of context, that was a part of the build up toward the Scottish Parliaments passing their Land Reform Act. I was new to computers and the internet and missed most of that, just picked up on it after I retired, much has now disappeared, but the reason I mention it is because it points towards the importance of objectives to encourage people to walk.


Objectives can be physical, such as summits or they can, or they can be an idea. We see this with the many and varied reasons people come this forum.


My passion, if there is one, is to make people think about the network they are allowed to walk in.


The opportunity right now is the ability to put into the machinery of government the reasons Single Farm Supplements will be paid and the terms of compliance.


I will throw another spanner in the works, Field Margins, we pay for them with those parts of our taxes that go into conservation, are they a lever towards a land Reform Act. A discussion on the percentage of field margins landowners should allow access to is pertinent to those paying the money for them.
BWW
Their Land is in Our Country.

barewirewalker

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2755
Re: IS NOW THE TIME TO COMPLAIN.............
« Reply #10 on: 14:49:41, 25/03/18 »
After reading Mel and Jimbobs posts and given them some though I will try to approach my suggestion from a different angle.


Farmers/ landowners get subsidies.


UK gov.com has promised recipients of these subsidies that the will not lose out, when the brexit transition makes the UK gov. the source of these subsidies changes from Brussels back to the modern equivalent of Min of Ag & Fish, as before we joined EU.


Since that time certain rules have been introduced, the recipients of subsidies, known as Single Farm supplements (still are as far as I know) and these can amount to a sum just short of £100 per acre. If the rules are observed this is known as compliance and non compliance can lead to subsidies not being paid.


UK gov. are now looking for suggestion for a set of rules, updated, improved etc for the new post brexit era.


This has been passed down to local authorities and other interested parties to discuss.


In the past a bad record on rights of way can be seen as non compliance.


My wording of complaints is seen to be aggressive. This wording stems from my feeling that a complaint is a justifiable response to a grievance, but leaving that aside, is it a time that suggestions should be bought forward based on experiences, on how the commercial occupiers of the land and the leisure users of the countryside share a common asset.


An occupier with Rights of Way makes contribution to the social and economic welfare of his surrounding community.


The occupier without makes no contribution but expects to be paid if he does provide permissive ways.


An occupier, who has a feature within his boundary, historical, natural or otherwise useful to the surrounding community, may be diminishing the effect of the communities social or economic access based endeavors.


I have pointed out on many times that lost ways are often missing pieces of old routes, I do not advocate reinstatement, merely because they are there but I have tried very hard to link them into a future usefulness.


Where the highways network has changed, parts of old routes become unsafe, there is no provision for an occupier to assess safety.


Much of the subsidy now going into agriculture and so called land management is for conservation and social improvement, the old reasons of controlling food prices are long gone, so the use of the word of subsidy is non pc, but I use it to stress the transition that is taking place.


There are no protests to be signed, no appeals for 'suggestions' and other campaigning instruments, just an observation based on a snippet of gossip or was inside information.
BWW
Their Land is in Our Country.

jimbob

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 940
Re: IS NOW THE TIME TO COMPLAIN.............
« Reply #11 on: 15:27:04, 25/03/18 »
Oh well, it seems like you may have listened to the debate that took place on this very subject in the House of Lords. ( Check Hansard ) a few days ago. Seems they covered the same questions you have put. Good place to start.

Also I believe that if you can achieve a certain number of signatories to a sensible idea then the Commons will try to make time to discuss it?

So yes there is a protest to sign, to start up even , if you truly believe in your recurring theme.
Too little, too late, too bad......

barewirewalker

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2755
Re: IS NOW THE TIME TO COMPLAIN.............
« Reply #12 on: 15:53:31, 25/03/18 »
Oh well, it seems like you may have listened to the debate that took place on this very subject in the House of Lords. ( Check Hansard ) a few days ago. Seems they covered the same questions you have put. Good place to start.


No I have not listened to a house of Lords debate. Perhaps mine is the original thought and repetition has bought fruit.


[/font]Also I believe that if you can achieve a certain number of signatories to a sensible idea then the Commons will try to make time to discuss it?
[/font]


I do not think I am the person to do that. My interest is in Shropshire, where the effects of the corruption of the definitive map, have revealed many of the examples, both cause and effect and I have my own channels to work in. If the evidence uncovered is useful to others that is why I pass it on.





[/size][/font]
So yes there is a protest to sign, to start up even , if you truly believe in your recurring theme.
[/size][/font]
Perhaps there are others who will find and interpret the patterns in other counties. A few were pointed out here sadly, sadly the mapping was lost with photobucket, but a few asked for copies, which I provided. And hard copy went to an activist with more connections than I have.
That topic was running 5 months before you joined this forum. There were followers, who actively took some of the evidence and ideas, researched into active debate in LAF's and research groups.
« Last Edit: 16:03:28, 25/03/18 by barewirewalker »
BWW
Their Land is in Our Country.

jimbob

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 940
Re: IS NOW THE TIME TO COMPLAIN.............
« Reply #13 on: 18:16:05, 25/03/18 »
Oh well so be it.

Good to know you do not have a bee in your bonnet.  :o
Too little, too late, too bad......

barewirewalker

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2755
Re: IS NOW THE TIME TO COMPLAIN.............
« Reply #14 on: 19:57:32, 25/03/18 »
Maybe not a bee in my bonnet, but a worm of apprehension in my gut.


Maybe, I confuse the issue even more, but your news about the discussion in the House of Lords is a move in the right direction, I must try to find the time to read up on it, family matters taking up a lot of time and will probably be 'off air' for a spell.
(One of the benefits of expressing views online is the collateral info that is added to a topic, thanks O0 [size=78%])[/size]


There are not many weeks go by I do not recognise a brilliant new product coming from our lovely countryside, and their PR is dependent on establishing a locale and an identity within our countryside.


Trouble is the arrogance of the established landowner clique fail to recognize this as potential jeopardy. There is great marketing strength in placing a business within our countryside, but if that area is off limits, there is a vulnerability that has already been tested. This is connected to the reference I made to 'Landowner Baiting'. Not intended to incite rebellion, my fervent wish it never happens, but I am sadly convinced that the superior prats, who foster lordly ways, within our countryside do not have the mental facility to recognize how this could happen.
BWW
Their Land is in Our Country.