Author Topic: I want to walk there..........and why?  (Read 2008 times)

barewirewalker

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2779
I want to walk there..........and why?
« on: 11:09:56, 12/11/18 »
How many here could point to a a place on the map and say "I want to be able to walk there, but there is no legal access", then provide a cogent reason why they should be able to walk there, which can logically refute the notion of Private Land.

In fact should the Question be; I should be able walk there because............? For over ten years since I was verbally abuse by a landowner for being on a right of way, which offered me the best option to walk across Wales in a particular line, I have started to collect examples of how the Access network does not live up to the expectations of the leisure user and how these limitations could be corrected.
Or are my expectations beyond the realms of possibility?


When I was on a LAF (for 5 years) 2 policies for the future of the Access Network were published, one by the landowners' lobby group, the CLA and the other by a joint group of users made up of the British Mountaineering Council, Ramblers, British Horse Society and on. The CLA policy was not offered to our LAF for discussion, despite there being 2 active members on it. The Joint users policy was bought to the attention of the LAF.

My precis of the 2 policies was;
Landowners think it would be Common Sense to trim the Access Network, whereas the users' group favoured 'Demand Led Access' being allowed.

'Demand Led Access', sounds a sensible catch phrase but how is it to be implemented, or even how could demand be recognised?

Collect together a directory of improvements, to our footpath network? Surely experienced walkers could do this? How extensive would it be? If it turned out to be substantial would it be better than the standard protest forms that just collect names, would a varied list of valid reasons provided by a large group be more effective than a list of people supporting a general protest.

I have been thinking of bringing together all the bits of unnecessary restriction I feel when I go into the countryside and making it into a document for my old LAF, which goes under the grand title of Shropshires Great Outdoors Strategy Board, if all these groups had good suggestions in copious quantity would it work. Probably not.............but it would be on record.

I am sure my collection on it's own would just gather dust.

Has anyone else got examples, perhaps I might be able to match one for one.
« Last Edit: 11:14:39, 12/11/18 by barewirewalker »
BWW
Their Land is in Our Country.

Mel

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7781
Re: I want to walk there..........and why?
« Reply #1 on: 13:16:08, 12/11/18 »
How many here could point to a a place on the map and say "I want to be able to walk there, but there is no legal access", then provide a cogent reason why they should be able to walk there,


I can. Its on private land. Not a PRoW. Avoids a busy fast moving road. It has carpet over the barbed wire for access. The landowner is aware and turns a blind eye as no damage is being caused and they understand the reason people use the route. To apply for it to become a legal RoW would be expensive so why change something that already works perfectly well. Oh and its not marked as a permissive path either.
No expense spared in pursuit of a bargain ;)
https://snailspacewalks.blogspot.co.uk/

barewirewalker

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2779
Re: I want to walk there..........and why?
« Reply #2 on: 19:41:49, 12/11/18 »
Thanks Mel, but a map reference would be helpful and it is wonderful that there are such landowners with a sense of social responsibility.
That was not the case when I last tried to cross the road at the top Harley Bank, SJ 61239 00264. The A458 approaching Much Wenlock has no verges and barely wide enough for two heavy lorries on either side of the road. The RoW on the east side of the road puts the walker directly on the tarmack, with a 100m walk to the RoW on the other side, Though the danger is easily apparent, a suitable approach had been blocked off with barbed wire across the top of a locked gate that could create a direct route to make a safe crossing.

BWW
Their Land is in Our Country.

Mel

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7781
Re: I want to walk there..........and why?
« Reply #3 on: 22:11:11, 12/11/18 »
No can do on the map ref Iím afraid.  Itís documenting such things ďas evidenceĒ that turn attitudes sour in my opinion - when ďtheir kindnessĒ is turned against them as ďour rightĒ.
 
No expense spared in pursuit of a bargain ;)
https://snailspacewalks.blogspot.co.uk/

barewirewalker

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2779
Re: I want to walk there..........and why?
« Reply #4 on: 13:54:52, 13/11/18 »
It is very sad that the concept of expanding on 'Demand Led Access' was not recognized as possible way to improve the freedom of countryside. Unfortunately little thought seemed to have been given to the process of recognizing demand.

Small tweaks to safety have a benefit to both parties; I think I have mentioned before that responsibility for safety is already a burden landowners have to share. A farmer, owner/occupier, I was a young farmer with, narrowly escaped a prison sentence due to a contractor's negligence, whilst working on his buildings, which caused the death of a worker.

Co-operation is always a better course than confrontation but facing up to problems and recognizing alternative courses of action is also better than the ostrich syndrome.

Because of the path that the Country Landowners' Association have chosen. It was their pursuit of 'Rights', triggered by the CRoW Act with open access and scaremongering that has caused much of the fear that Mel tries to avoid.

In the case of my example of a footpath Crossing an A road, the obstructions to the sensible and safer option seemed to coincide with the CLA's Access Adviser, publishing and encouraging steps to avoid RoWs being established.
By exploring 'Examples' further creative understanding can be developed. A chance meeting I had with a farmer 2 summers ago, made me realize how much there attitude is enhanced by looking at very large scale maps, 25inch per mile and never seeing the effect their sense of inconvenience actually fits in with broader picture as shown as the scale of the map is reduced.
If I were to post this map reference SJ 90018 26698, in Streetmap, what can anyone see? I see a potential asset wasted, 3.25 miles of cross country route that blindly ends on an A road and a possible use of very expensive infrastructure that could, for short distance of field margins, contribute to our countryside access.


BWW
Their Land is in Our Country.

Mel

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7781
Re: I want to walk there..........and why?
« Reply #5 on: 18:35:42, 13/11/18 »
I actually donít understand the point you are trying to make.  A RoW should be created just because you donít want to walk on a busy road?
I still say you should channel your energies into access rights similar to what Scotland has, rather than fannying around at landowners / taxpayers expense trying to create RoWs that, for the most part, will never be walked just to link up some old historically functional but no longer practical path to a farmhouse that no longer exists.

No expense spared in pursuit of a bargain ;)
https://snailspacewalks.blogspot.co.uk/

barewirewalker

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2779
Re: I want to walk there..........and why?
« Reply #6 on: 10:24:53, 14/11/18 »
I actually donít understand the point you are trying to make.  A RoW should be created just because you donít want to walk on a busy road?
Who wants to walk along a busy road and roads are not only becoming busier, but more dangerous. Only a year ago, we were preparing for a grand child's party and got a very tragic apology as one family pulled out at the last minute. One of the children's aunties had been killed whilst out jogging in the evenings, it coincided with this time of year when the clocks change.
The access network for those, who are prepared to study it, is almost completely based on the 'Snapshot in Time' created by the OS surveys between 1880 - 1940, with certain exceptions due to political bias in the 1950's and 60's.


Since it's creation, based on the Definitive Map, the access network has become valuable national asset; 

For social therapy,
Leisure Activity.Education.
Tourism.
Probably a lot more, but this from just one tired old brain. It also has been recorded as earning £100,000's per mile in places. Location may have a lot to do with the more successful parts, but another common factor is "Continuity of Way".
I still say you should channel your energies into access rights similar to what Scotland has, rather than fannying around at landowners / taxpayers expense

The Scottish Land reform Act of 2003 is probably the most effective way of sharing our countryside for leisure use, but is likely to happen. Certainly not without a lot of research and reasoned argument to persuade our legislators of the benefits. The Welsh assembly is looking at it, I wonder how much help the supporters of broadening open access are getting by people pointing to particular lines of pedestrian links or little used infrastructure that could open up good parts of restricted countryside.

trying to create RoWs that, for the most part, will never be walked just to link up some old historically functional but no longer practical path to a farmhouse that no longer exists.
Let us take one particular example, where I showed 11.5 square miles in Herefordshire without any RoWs. A lostway A-B to a disused rail station and another C-D from the other side. Route A-D would provide a considerable line of approach along a sightline from the top of the Malvern Hills to the Black Mountains to the only non Urban river bridge in a 20 mile stretch of the River Wye.


BWW
Their Land is in Our Country.

Mel

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7781
Re: I want to walk there..........and why?
« Reply #7 on: 18:14:40, 14/11/18 »
Who wants to walk along a busy road and roads are not only becoming busier, but more dangerous.


Well nobody of course. But, with the invention of cars, roads became a more viable option for functional getting to and from A to B.  If it's not viable to create a path alongside a road then why would anyone spend the money on doing so just so a (p)leisure walker might someday walk it?


[/font]
The access network for those, who are prepared to study it, is almost completely based on the 'Snapshot in Time' created by the OS surveys between 1880 - 1940, with certain exceptions due to political bias in the 1950's and 60's.




Exactly.  That's what it was based on. 


[/font]
Since it's creation, based on the Definitive Map, the access network has become valuable national asset; 

For social therapy,
Leisure Activity.Education.
Tourism.




But again, there comes a financial point where creating every option of RoWs across land from A to B just is not viable.  Imagine that happened.  There'd still be someone who'd want to walk where a RoW was not.



A lostway A-B to a disused rail station and another C-D from the other side. Route A-D would provide a considerable line of approach along a sightline from the top of the Malvern Hills to the Black Mountains to the only non Urban river bridge in a 20 mile stretch of the River Wye.


My point exactly again.  A disused rail station.  It serves no function apart from historical interest perhaps.  So money isn't going to be spent on creating a RoW to it if it is not financially viable to do so.




It sounds like what you'd really like is access for everyone pretty much everywhere so let me introduce you, once again to the setup they've got in Scotland.  Surely it makes more sense to channel time and energy into campaigning and lobbying for something like that to be implemented in England rather than updating the Definitive Map with a few twiddly cost-ineffective footpaths in this ever-changing landscape.







No expense spared in pursuit of a bargain ;)
https://snailspacewalks.blogspot.co.uk/

barewirewalker

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2779
Re: I want to walk there..........and why?
« Reply #8 on: 12:10:58, 15/11/18 »
Now I am totally confused. :D
I am all for an English equivalent of the Scottish Land Reform Act, but I very much doubt that there are any feasible arguments on the table to make it a realistic possibility.

Going back to my OP the offer to discuss the understanding of 'Demand Led Access' with the forum was more my intention. My home county is very poorly provided for in routes to cross, what is the largest inland landlocked county, the flagship route is a circular meander with a few spurs added on.
Now I have been a member of this forum for 12 years and there seems to be an increase in the interest of linear routes and multi-day linear routes, it seems to me that a more free attitude to the use of field margins for which the tax payer contributes to the landowner so that they do not come into cultivation.

And as a one time farm manager, the use of these (with understanding) causes no more interference with agricultural practice that do the ways that are RoW. Possibly less.
Actually the access network was based on directives from the 1949 Act. The choice for parishes to base them on the OS map probably made their job easier, and those opposed to the act on political bias had an even easier job leaving some off.

It is sad that the political purpose of the access network as created by the Definite map is not more recognised at this time of the year, as an epitaph for the sacrifices through 2 world wars that was supposed to give the people of this country the freedom of their countryside.
Those landowners who caused obviously viable parts off the network to be left off the DM went against the will of Parliament.




BWW
Their Land is in Our Country.

pauldawes

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1165
Re: I want to walk there..........and why?
« Reply #9 on: 15:33:57, 15/11/18 »
You do wonder about public footpaths that mysteriously just end just short of another footpath, or just short of a lane (whatever) which if you just trespass say 50 yards form part of a good circular route (in general form a satisfying walk) but without that trespass leave you with no alternative but to turn round and walk back the way you've come.


There are certainly a few examples in areas I've walked in recent years when it's hard to doubt that at some point there was  an integrated route, but a short stretch of it has...for whatever reason..not made it into being recognised as a "public footpath".


It would be great...of course...if we could get a Scottish type system where we could wander as freely as possible, with emphasis being on walkers to not cause damage, or make unreasonable intrusions on privacy. But...I think we all deep down know BWW is right to suggest that is extremely unlikely...and some system of putting "pressure" on landowners to allow reasonable route extensions/ improvements would surely be better than present situation...where it appears there is more chance of an existing footpath being lost, than a new one granted.
« Last Edit: 15:37:24, 15/11/18 by pauldawes »

richardh1905

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 706
Re: I want to walk there..........and why?
« Reply #10 on: 16:31:40, 15/11/18 »
It sounds like what you'd really like is access for everyone pretty much everywhere so let me introduce you, once again to the setup they've got in Scotland.  Surely it makes more sense to channel time and energy into campaigning and lobbying for something like that to be implemented in England rather than updating the Definitive Map with a few twiddly cost-ineffective footpaths in this ever-changing landscape.



^ This


Not long back from a tough 8 mile walk, some of which was over farmland and trackless heather moorland - and to get on the hill I sneaked through someone's garden, as suggested by their neighbour!


People are just so much more relaxed about access in Scotland - England really needs to catch up, and this is where campaigning should be directed.

barewirewalker

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2779
Re: I want to walk there..........and why?
« Reply #11 on: 19:13:03, 15/11/18 »
You do wonder about public footpaths that mysteriously just end just short of another footpath, or just short of a lane
It was a young Rights of Officer, who explained the reasons for these sorts of anomalies to me probably nearly 15 years ago, he explained the political and circumstantial circumstances of the time in those postwar years and how they contributed to these nonsensical anomalies. I then realised how much I knew about this as I got pitched onto National Farmers Union County Executive at a very young age.

Very few people seem to realise that it is because landowners did not wish to allow reasonable access to our countryside that we have to have Rights of Way, ironical now as spend so much time bellyaching about them.This example here shown in Streetmap a RoW footpath ends at a parish boundary, third bar up is the 1:25k OS map, which shows the black dotted line denoting a parish boundary. south of the boundary is one of the Shrewsbury Borough Council, the footpath enters a privately owned estate from the town, but that is where the RoW ceases, and that parish came under the authority of the then the Shrewsbury and Atcham Rural District Council, whose chairman was an Estate Agent known to act for at least 7 estate around the town, all with a incidence of RoW, which linked the town to the countryside. I found some correspondence line some years ago which linked this man to the Berwick estate, where the RoW ceases.
On Saturday I will be with a Lady, who will be celebrating her 100th birthday, she was the daughter of a tenant of that farm, and she remembers the owner of the estate, grandfather of present owners, insisting he had to keep the pathway open as it was a right of way. She remembers many people walking along it in the 1920's from a large house on the other side of the estate.

Not long back from a tough 8 mile walk, some of which was over farmland and trackless heather moorland - and to get on the hill I sneaked through someone's garden, as suggested by their neighbour!

I had a similar experience, having walked across 0.5mile steep field, to find an overly expressive array of privacy defence, a neighbour called out, "Just walk through his garden, he's at work all day, but don't come back this way, late afternoon when he is back. If he would unlock the field gate there would be no trouble for anyone."
Why the landowners lobby so hard against access, when the growth of the leisure industry is boosting the rural economy, is pure contrariness. PD is probably correct in thinking that they will be seeking to stop little used RoW. That is why they are desperate to get past 2026, without the full implications of the corruption of the Definitive Map becoming fully exposed.



« Last Edit: 19:17:29, 15/11/18 by barewirewalker »
BWW
Their Land is in Our Country.

Mel

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7781
Re: I want to walk there..........and why?
« Reply #12 on: 19:34:36, 15/11/18 »
I can't help feeling that, BWW, you have a personal axe to grind.  You have been badly wronged at some time in your past and want revenge  :(   Would you be willing to share those events with us?



No expense spared in pursuit of a bargain ;)
https://snailspacewalks.blogspot.co.uk/

barewirewalker

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2779
Re: I want to walk there..........and why?
« Reply #13 on: 12:35:51, 16/11/18 »
Now this is getting 'off topic', I think any disclosures I might make on Mel's psychologist's couch would not result in revealing a desire for vengeance. No, understanding is probably more the underlying motive and frustration. The three points MEL makes are so twisted off the points I was trying to lead a discussion into that I question my ability to convey my thoughts in understandable prose.


As I sit writing this I have noticed a pamphlet written by my father Titled 'The Land and the People', this was written for the NFU, it was not written by a landowner, but a tenant farmer. However there is a forward and part of it says;


There is much in it , with which people may not agree; this adds to it's value, for it will provoke discussion and create interest.

Our townsfolk out number our countryfolk by nine or ten to one.

Only a fraction of countryfolk depend directly for their livelihood upon the production of food, but the whole population consumes it, and naturally at naturally likes to get it as cheaply as possible.


This was written by Sir Anon(Bart). This was written in 1942, it goes on to express how the resources of land should be used in peacetime.


My Father dedicated the booklet to; All those who,by their works and their thoughts, are striving to build a better world from the ashes and destruction of the old.


If I had seen a fraction of that understanding in the CLA's policy on access but such was the level self interest it cross the border into selfishness I probably would not be so persistent in passing on words of warning.
I also refer back to my remarks about Access being a Epitaph to sacrifices made during 2 world wars.


A true outcome of the Stepping Forward Initiative would have been and admission by the landowning stakeholders for their predecessors part in the corruption of definitive map, an offer to make good and a national apology in the same spirit as the Duke of Devonshire has made because his ancestors caused the Kinver Mass Trespass.


If there is anyone, who would like to steer this topic back on course perhaps the suggestion that Pauldawes made might link a hopeful line of thought for improvements, if only speculatory, to our network of footpaths.


The need for the resource of our countryside that offers leisure needs to be shared with understanding.
BWW
Their Land is in Our Country.

pauldawes

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1165
Re: I want to walk there..........and why?
« Reply #14 on: 17:11:35, 16/11/18 »
Mention of the Duke of Devonshire...I think...makes it easy to use Chatsworth  estate as an example of how welcoming walkers in an appropriate manner can be profitable to the landowner himself/ herself as well as the walkers.


Not just in monetary terms..though clearly the estate does turn over useful money from its many visitors, but also in the joy gained by sharing ones good fortune (to have temporary custody of land) with others.



And I must admit that I was startled by Melís notion that a desire for revenge would be a likely motive for some one who cares deeply about improving rights of way.


Iíve come across just a handful of people who have put a significant amount of effort into that at local level (much to my surprise, I found out my father had engaged in voluminous correspondence on local rights of way when I tidied up some of his old papers).


In that admittedly limited sample, itís always been clear that main driving force has been a love of rambling freely and a wish to see others share that joy more easily and widely.
« Last Edit: 17:18:31, 16/11/18 by pauldawes »