Author Topic: Public road on ordnance survey map  (Read 1390 times)

barewirewalker

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3139
Re: Public road on ordnance survey map
« Reply #15 on: 08:04:11, 28/11/19 »
Welcome to the forum, I think others have defined the nature of grey paths, tracks and roads very well, but there are many shades of grey. Since the passing of the CRoW Act, those who have read internal publications of the landowners and farming press might feel some concern that the boundary between de facto rights of way and actual rights of way as marked on the map and refer to the Definitive map may be under some threat.

It is wise to tread with caution, as shown with Mel's map there are two options to avoid a walking an A road to reach an adopted track. Yet neither are rights of way. Are they Lostways?

In 1949. an Act of Parliament was past intending to award the people of this country the freedom of their countryside for the sacrifices made by those through 2 World Wars. Unfortunately the administrations, County council etc. were in turmoil, postwar, and in the case of many Shire counties dominated by Landowners, who lived in a past age.

This resulted in the Corruption of the Definitive Map, both by poor assessment or vestige interest, that will now be further exacerbated by individuals' sense of property.

Thorn Villa Farm has a grey track from the west and grey path from the east both ways linked by walking through the farm yard, pre-1960's local people would happily walk through an active farmyard if it was an accepted way to a destination.
Hilltop Farm is a very small holding, despite the barrier shown, there are tracks both from the North west and South East. Is this a stronger way? The way does show a very slight tendency to go around the property, a sign that in other similar anomalies can be more apparent. So how important are these ways to today's access map and the future development of a network that is an important part of our society?
As Mel says;
To be honest, it can all be a bit trial and error but great fun in the exploring - both on the map and on foot  O0
But also important to continually question and criticize how our countryside is occupied and shared. I made some interesting discoveries yesterday, a lostway with a lost bridge and a Right of Way that property owners are doing their best to eradicate, all part of a 15 mile way of grey and green ways.
BWW
Their Land is in Our Country.

fernman

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2454
Re: Public road on ordnance survey map
« Reply #16 on: 09:05:12, 28/11/19 »
Last May I followed the winding track shown below from the lake on the left to the property at Bryn-du. I did not see the footpaths marked on the map. The track ended at a wooden five-bar gate with a 'Private No Access' sign. Beyond the gate was a stone chip drive leading to a public road.
As I was at the end of a 4-day walk I did not want to climb all the way back up the hill I had just come down to find another route, so I tiptoed past holding my breath until I was safely beyond the private bit.
« Last Edit: 09:08:45, 28/11/19 by fernman »

Mel

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8816
Re: Public road on ordnance survey map
« Reply #17 on: 18:48:51, 28/11/19 »
Wooney00 - try not to be put off by barewirewalker's somewhat lengthy reply.  As you may have guessed, he's rather passionate about where you can and can't walk and goes off on a tangent when he gets carried away! 


You'll have to let us know how you get on and how what's on the ground compares with the map after you've explored  O0



No expense spared in pursuit of a bargain ;)
https://snailspacewalks.blogspot.co.uk/

wooney00

  • New Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5
Re: Public road on ordnance survey map
« Reply #18 on: 18:54:53, 28/11/19 »
Thanks for that, I will let you know :)

barewirewalker

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3139
Re: Public road on ordnance survey map
« Reply #19 on: 13:10:30, 30/11/19 »
Wooney, I will also be interested in how you get on. Mel has a tendency to be reactive to my posts, I had hoped to make you aware of some of the politics behind the likely reactions you may experience walking unadopted roads. The obvious is a drive to a domestic residence and this can be made confusing by a RoW footpath joining it. There are many more complicated interpretations, but even the most simple may result in a meeting with a property owner, who may or may not be happy that you are there.
Sadly the authorities are often backward in dealing with these issues and when they may be a bit contentious and too worried about political correctness to take sides.
Should you be interested in some examples, there are plenty I won't burden your topic with unnecessary links, but this is not the first time this question has been aired on this forum. Then the actual location was provided and this had some interesting relevance to a number of general walking issues.
 
BWW
Their Land is in Our Country.

BuzyG

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1461
Re: Public road on ordnance survey map
« Reply #20 on: 10:18:01, 01/12/19 »
There is a route I walk regularly on Bodmin moor. At one point two areas of access land are joined by a dotted lane.  No RoW is marked.  I have twice waked through there when there has been a shoot taking place on the private land.  On both occasions I approached a safety look out on Killmar tor.  On both occasions I was asked where I was heading and allowed through, they also stopped the shoot whist I transited the area. :)

GinAndPlatonic

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 408
Re: Public road on ordnance survey map
« Reply #21 on: 12:49:50, 01/12/19 »
ard in dealing with these issues and when they may be a bit contentious and too worried about political correctness to take sides.
Should you be interested in some examples, there are plenty I won't burden your topic with unnecessary links, but this is not the first time this question has been aired on this forum. Then the actual location was provided and this had some interesting relevance to a number of general walking issues.
I hope I`m not derailing this thread but I am doing a walk on Monday near lloyney on the Welsh border and there is a ROW leading into a farm and its outbuildings, then one leading away from it the other side. Something that stands out for me though is the green dotted line on Ordnance Survey mapping stops and starts again on either side of the farm with no obvious way shown by OS, along the tracks inside the farm yard. I have done this walk once before and remember the farm had no signs attached to its entrance gate ways. It looked deserted at that time & a tad eery, although I know it is working farm.
What is your opinion BW walker on whether the public have a r o w through the farm area.?
Walking for me is an antidote to all that rushing around in life that sometimes happens.

barewirewalker

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3139
Re: Public road on ordnance survey map
« Reply #22 on: 16:55:48, 01/12/19 »
Sounds like a classic anomaly, OS cannot map the RoW continuously because through the farmyard because it was not originally surveyed as a continuous way, even though that was the intention of the 1949 Act. The surveyors or parish councils were not properly briefed as they would have been today and the assumption was the rights of way were being mapped for the use of the occupiers of the properties.
Coincidentally it was a RoW officer for Powys CC, who originally explained this to me.
Since the 2000 CRoW the CLA have worked on a grass roots membership and have encouraged the idea that RoWs are bad news for property owners. So a break like this may well been seen as an opportunity to close it.
It is a great area to walk in I have spoken to many farmers in that area, usually friendly enough but if the property has been done up, don't be surprised at a change of attitude.
BWW
Their Land is in Our Country.

GinAndPlatonic

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 408
Re: Public road on ordnance survey map
« Reply #23 on: 18:14:39, 01/12/19 »
Sounds like a classic anomaly, OS cannot map the RoW continuously because through the farmyard because it was not originally surveyed as a continuous way, even though that was the intention of the 1949 Act. The surveyors or parish councils were not properly briefed as they would have been today and the assumption was the rights of way were being mapped for the use of the occupiers of the properties.
Coincidentally it was a RoW officer for Powys CC, who originally explained this to me.
Since the 2000 CRoW the CLA have worked on a grass roots membership and have encouraged the idea that RoWs are bad news for property owners. So a break like this may well been seen as an opportunity to close it.
It is a great area to walk in I have spoken to many farmers in that area, usually friendly enough but if the property has been done up, don't be surprised at a change of attitude.
That is so interesting. Yes I could see if it was a farm that is sold and then buildings converted to living accommodation the owners would not want walkers going past their front doors.

So as you say originally the rights of way were looked at in different terms as they are today. I know that pathways were used to get from village to village or to the local church etc all for access at the times. I see why now landowners feel the need at times to jealously guard their land from intruders (walkers). Nowadays people build more physical and also mental barriers to keep intruders at bay.

I reckon the internet is heavily responsible for the way we perceive strangers. Where as before maybe with a little caution now people build walls. Because we are under attack from all sides etc. Scams, hacking, con artists.
Our psychology is changing as a culture methinks.
This is the farm I was talking of :
« Last Edit: 18:21:54, 01/12/19 by GinAndPlatonic »
Walking for me is an antidote to all that rushing around in life that sometimes happens.

ninthace

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4501
Re: Public road on ordnance survey map
« Reply #24 on: 19:03:15, 01/12/19 »
That is screaming for a look using Streetview.  You should be able to see the path entering and leaving the minor road.


Edit:  Just had a look.  The farm to the S is just barns etc, looks like a simple walk through, there is no finger post that I can see.  The path leaving N looks like it goes up the drive to the right of the lane and through the gate behind the person in the red jacket.
« Last Edit: 19:15:15, 01/12/19 by ninthace »
Solvitur Ambulando

GinAndPlatonic

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 408
Re: Public road on ordnance survey map
« Reply #25 on: 19:35:32, 01/12/19 »
That is screaming for a look using Streetview.  You should be able to see the path entering and leaving the minor road.


Edit:  Just had a look.  The farm to the S is just barns etc, looks like a simple walk through, there is no finger post that I can see.  The path leaving N looks like it goes up the drive to the right of the lane and through the gate behind the person in the red jacket.
I`ve been through there once before. It was the lack of obvious signs to guide anyone through which put doubt in my mind. I will often walk through farms or past people`s front doors & even their gardens at times but I am very conscious  of anyones personal space & a need to give these people respect who are left with land that any walker may have a right to walk across.
Walking for me is an antidote to all that rushing around in life that sometimes happens.

fernman

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2454
Re: Public road on ordnance survey map
« Reply #26 on: 19:43:40, 01/12/19 »
In my experience in the Chilterns, where I do all of my day walks, I often find that such farms or former farms have permissive footpaths around them that aren't shown on the map. Alternatively many of those that have been converted into homes have had the public footpath diverted around their boundary, where perhaps the OS has been a bit slow to catch up.

GinAndPlatonic

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 408
Re: Public road on ordnance survey map
« Reply #27 on: 19:58:38, 01/12/19 »
In my experience in the Chilterns, where I do all of my day walks, I often find that such farms or former farms have permissive footpaths around them that aren't shown on the map. Alternatively many of those that have been converted into homes have had the public footpath diverted around their boundary, where perhaps the OS has been a bit slow to catch up.
There are some farm buildings which have been converted to dwellings, and I`m racking my brains trying to remember where. But someone has put some, what I believe are false (but good copies) signs diverting walkers around the boundary of the group of buildings.
Also there is a cast iron sign which councils do not use that shouts no entry fixed to some heavy gates. On the OS map it clearly shows the footpath going within a metre of three front doors. The first time I lost my bearings because of them. The next time I walked past the doors & through the communal gardens, waiting to be challenged but nothing happened.
Walking for me is an antidote to all that rushing around in life that sometimes happens.

GinAndPlatonic

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 408
Re: Public road on ordnance survey map
« Reply #28 on: 20:13:58, 01/12/19 »


I have just remembered where the misleading signs are ...here at Great Alne Mills:The green dashes is the obvious OS designated footpath...the other in black is the one the residents would like walkers to follow.Maybe OS has not updated it but my guess is that it is a ruse to get people away from their front doors....
Walking for me is an antidote to all that rushing around in life that sometimes happens.

barewirewalker

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3139
Re: Public road on ordnance survey map
« Reply #29 on: 11:00:36, 02/12/19 »
Edit:  Just had a look.  The farm to the S is just barns etc, looks like a simple walk through, there is no finger post that I can see.  The path leaving N looks like it goes up the drive to the right of the lane and through the gate behind the person in the red jacket.
I have done many walks in that area, 15 years ago the Powys CC had done little sign posting, their first priority was getting the roadside finger posts up before moving onto waymarks styles etc. The reason was Powys was formed from the amalgamation of several smaller administrative bodies including Radnorshire, these lesser bodies did very little work on the access network. It was noticeable that as the finger posts went up any that were slightly anomalous did not get put up, the definitive map had to be clear that there was a connection to the highway.
Looking on GE Streetview as suggested by Ninethace, I agree with him. Further my guess from the look of the farm that it is unlikely that they have been poisoned by current CLA strategies. The farm buildings have the look of a working farm unlikely to be interested in paying their membership fees, I expect the NFU of Wales rep. has a job keeping them on board.


BWW
Their Land is in Our Country.