Author Topic: Edgelands, P.U.T. and Lockdown?  (Read 1102 times)

archaeoroutes

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1421
Re: Edgelands, P.U.T. and Lockdown?
« Reply #15 on: 10:05:24, 17/04/20 »
I have very rarely encountered any problems with landowners or tenants. Even way off route, they tend to just give me a friendly wave or (in the pre-Covid19 days) stop for a chat. I've had gamekeepers come driving up and so on, but the only time it became a problem was when a member of HM security detail came along and pointed out I was somehow inside their security cordon!
I have met quite often people who have bought a house and then got upset there was a ROW through their garden, or down their lane, or just next to the house. These are the ones who, in my experience, are using every possible excuse to stop people using it (including Covid19).

Perhaps I just look all innocent?
Perhaps its because I've always lived in friendly areas?
Walking routes visiting ancient sites in Britain's uplands: http://www.archaeoroutes.co.uk

pauldawes

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1344
Re: Edgelands, P.U.T. and Lockdown?
« Reply #16 on: 10:07:15, 17/04/20 »
Ironically where this all happening the landowner has invested in factory produced privacy signs and demands to keep to a right of way that has not been made good across the crop. (I expect these signs can be bulk purchased through a supplier encouraged by direct marketing through the CLA)


Another favourite sign of some farmers is “Beware of the Bull”. Sometimes left near stile into a field with a public footpath, and left there for months after bull has been moved elsewhere.

pauldawes

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1344
Re: Edgelands, P.U.T. and Lockdown?
« Reply #17 on: 10:17:23, 17/04/20 »
I have very rarely encountered any problems with landowners or tenants. Even way off route, they tend to just give me a friendly wave or (in the pre-Covid19 days) stop for a chat. I've had gamekeepers come driving up and so on, but the only time it became a problem was when a member of HM security detail came along and pointed out I was somehow inside their security cordon!
I have met quite often people who have bought a house and then got upset there was a ROW through their garden, or down their lane, or just next to the house. These are the ones who, in my experience, are using every possible excuse to stop people using it (including Covid19).

Perhaps I just look all innocent?
Perhaps its because I've always lived in friendly areas?


In areas I walk the norm is for farmer to be friendly, and outright hostility rare..the last time I had an acrimonious talk with a farmer was years ago. (He flat out refused to believe me when I told him his dog had raced across to me and head butted my leg.)


But I do come across subtle clues fairly often that walkers are not really welcome. Heaps of manure left very close to stiles, signs showing ROW’s disappearing with alarming frequency, etc


It does baffle me why some put up a load of signs telling you where you can’t go (“Private, Keep Out”), rather than concentrating on just making it clear where ROW is.

barewirewalker

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3249
Re: Edgelands, P.U.T. and Lockdown?
« Reply #18 on: 10:47:41, 17/04/20 »
If the land owner is so innocent as Archaeoroutes suggests, why do they do they so vehemently deny lostways. The landowner, who presided over the publication of the CLA's 2012 policy on access lives in an area that has 11 square miles barren of RoWs, the ways lost there could add to some very important cross county routes. In fact his family owns land on which there is a section of Offa's Dyke that is 10 miles away from the path of that name.
BWW
Their Land is in Our Country.

ninthace

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6535
Re: Edgelands, P.U.T. and Lockdown?
« Reply #19 on: 11:12:04, 17/04/20 »
My next door neighbour is a landowner. She owns quite a bit of the land round the village. She is sweet person who, despite her advanced years, does a lot for the elderly of the village and the church. Part of the Two Moors Way crosses her land. Although she is not responsible for the maintenance of the route, she pays to have it kept clear. She gets no benefit from doing this.
Other landowners I know of have opened up their land to walkers and put paths in.  I was enjoying just such a path yesterday.
They are not all bad people.
Solvitur Ambulando

barewirewalker

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3249
Re: Edgelands, P.U.T. and Lockdown?
« Reply #20 on: 11:27:04, 17/04/20 »
I am told Harry Cotterrel is a very nice bloke by those who know him, sure he would come over very charming if I were to meet him as are many landowners I know. But the 2012 Access policy he published as president of the CLA has not been rebuked as it should have been, and is probably responsible for much of the petty squirarchy that goes with the majority landowning attitude
BWW
Their Land is in Our Country.

archaeoroutes

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1421
Re: Edgelands, P.U.T. and Lockdown?
« Reply #21 on: 13:28:14, 17/04/20 »
If the land owner is so innocent as Archaeoroutes suggests, why do they do they so vehemently deny lostways. The landowner, who presided over the publication of the CLA's 2012 policy on access lives in an area that has 11 square miles barren of RoWs, the ways lost there could add to some very important cross county routes. In fact his family owns land on which there is a section of Offa's Dyke that is 10 miles away from the path of that name.
I am not making any historical claim. Nor indeed any pretence that my personal experience is the norm (it is purely my own experience).
You did ask (can't remember in which thread) why so few walkers get really het up about access. Possibly it is because many find it to be OK, perhaps because they live in areas well served by the network? Or because they don't like the setting up of 'good' and 'bad' and painting all landowners with the same brush and think that it is more of a hindrance than a help. Or perhaps they simply feel that they don't have a right to go anywhere they want and take joy in going where that can.


Please don't get me wrong. I report any attempt to impede a ROW that I find, I support efforts to prevent misclassification of land to try to remove it from the Access category, and I have spent quite a lot of time tracking down lost ways and passing that information on to access officers and the Ramblers Association.
I applaud improvements in the access network. I sympathise with those who don't live somewhere where it is very good.


I do reject any request for current incumbents to apologise for what their predecessors did. Apologies can only meaningfully come from those responsible
To me, it would be wrong to ask Angela Merkel to apologise for the Holocaust. Just like it would be wrong to ask Ainsley Harriet to apologise for his ancestor's part in the slave trade.
I agree that if it were possible, it would be good for them to right the wrongs.


I think, fundamentally, I am just very tired of 'us' vs 'them' wherever I encounter it. And I react badly to it.[/size]
Walking routes visiting ancient sites in Britain's uplands: http://www.archaeoroutes.co.uk

barewirewalker

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3249
Re: Edgelands, P.U.T. and Lockdown?
« Reply #22 on: 10:44:50, 19/04/20 »
I think, fundamentally, I am just very tired of 'us' vs 'them' wherever I encounter it. And I react badly to it.[/size]
I can sympathize with this point of view, however I think it is a dangerous line of though, because in recent years the landowner opposition to access has grown. This is because the CLA has to compete with the NFU for membership subscriptions to survive and their flagship policy is the protection of Private Land from Public Access.

Prior to the CRoW act their professional adviser on access wrote, "Landowners will have to give away more than we take." This was in context with reasoning to reach an understanding about access with the users. Harry Cotterrel used this phrase in an article around 2010 during his vice presidency, but when he became president and published their 2012 Policy this thinking had disappeared. At that time the CLA changed their professional adviser on access. I believe the previous person came from a land agent background. Such a person would have more experience of the relationship between land management and the surround community, the current access adviser, is a landowner, who is also a lawyer and is hard line anti-access. So at a time when the occupiers of the countryside should be reviewing the historical make up of access pre-2026 in a manner expressed in the CLA's own publications they have U turned.

I believe that Lawyer Slade has pumped so much poison into the issue that only a public apology by the CLA that recognizes the historical part the landowners played in leaving many footpaths  off the Definitive Map would help get a dialogue back on track to start to create an access network suitable for the 21st century.
« Last Edit: 10:29:31, 20/04/20 by barewirewalker »
BWW
Their Land is in Our Country.

barewirewalker

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3249
Re: Edgelands, P.U.T. and Lockdown?
« Reply #23 on: 11:18:23, 20/04/20 »
Yesterday I walked a little over 5 miles with Mrs BWW and 3 of those miles were within this area, where I have been following the Peripheral Urban trespass of others. In fact we strayed off the righteous way almost at the outset to follow a faintest of tracks, this led to a significant trail that led from the urban fringe. Where we joined this trail the quality of way increased by 5 points (in a scale of 1-10) over the right of way, it was a natural defile formed by an ancient watercourse, partially wooded that formed the boundary between 2 fields. This route joined the RoW where a bridge over the stream should have been, long collapsed the remaining pieces, which could act as stepping aids, removes as well.

Crossing the line of the line of the RoW we continued along a trail recently broken in through a wood, in the context of a lowland agricultural setting, the quality of way must rate 7 even 8, as we emerged from the wood I spotted a family of 5, distant across a couple of fields, but spread out along a hedge-line coming from the direction I had in mind to investigate. As we drew closer they took a route the other side of the hedge from which we were approaching. I spoke to an attractive lady I look to be the mother of the 3 children in the party, asked if the were following a route, but they were not, they were just following field margins and she commented on how the parks in town were too crowded to safely take their children, to a place where they could freely enjoy exercise.

I pointed to the direction they had come from, where there is a wood, beyond this there is a bridge over the railway, where they could link into the official footpath network. Paths broken in by P.U.T can in fact be a beneficial addition to the statutory access network. I was trying to probe a possible link with the railway bridge, it takes a very quiet county lane over the Shrewsbury/Chester line, where some 50 yards beyond is a well used right of way. Sadly this footpath, which might rate 8 in quality of way finishes at this lane. The cessation point is a also the start of a mile of so of lostway that could access some significantly beautiful block countryside, that has no other access.

In making the connection through to the bridge we walked a way that uplifted out spirits and were treated to the most magnificent display of marsh marigolds that stretched like a golden carpet for as far as we could see into the base of a waterlocked withybed.
« Last Edit: 11:38:56, 20/04/20 by barewirewalker »
BWW
Their Land is in Our Country.

Toxicbunny

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 168
Re: Edgelands, P.U.T. and Lockdown?
« Reply #24 on: 16:37:50, 30/04/20 »
I am not making any historical claim. Nor indeed any pretence that my personal experience is the norm (it is purely my own experience).
You did ask (can't remember in which thread) why so few walkers get really het up about access. Possibly it is because many find it to be OK, perhaps because they live in areas well served by the network? Or because they don't like the setting up of 'good' and 'bad' and painting all landowners with the same brush and think that it is more of a hindrance than a help. Or perhaps they simply feel that they don't have a right to go anywhere they want and take joy in going where that can.


Please don't get me wrong. I report any attempt to impede a ROW that I find, I support efforts to prevent misclassification of land to try to remove it from the Access category, and I have spent quite a lot of time tracking down lost ways and passing that information on to access officers and the Ramblers Association.
I applaud improvements in the access network. I sympathise with those who don't live somewhere where it is very good.


I do reject any request for current incumbents to apologise for what their predecessors did. Apologies can only meaningfully come from those responsible
To me, it would be wrong to ask Angela Merkel to apologise for the Holocaust. Just like it would be wrong to ask Ainsley Harriet to apologise for his ancestor's part in the slave trade.
I agree that if it were possible, it would be good for them to right the wrongs.


I think, fundamentally, I am just very tired of 'us' vs 'them' wherever I encounter it. And I react badly to it.[/size]
At the moment the Ramblers association is asking for people to find lost pathways. I've mapped a few regions for them where I know there is rights of way that have disappeared.  Details are on their website of how to help.


ninthace

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6535
Re: Edgelands, P.U.T. and Lockdown?
« Reply #25 on: 17:05:59, 30/04/20 »
At the moment the Ramblers association is asking for people to find lost pathways. I've mapped a few regions for them where I know there is rights of way that have disappeared.  Details are on their website of how to help.
Too late - it has finished.  They are now analysing the data
 https://www.ramblers.org.uk/get-involved/campaign-with-us/dont-lose-your-way-2026.aspx
Solvitur Ambulando

Toxicbunny

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 168
Re: Edgelands, P.U.T. and Lockdown?
« Reply #26 on: 17:13:52, 30/04/20 »
Too late - it has finished.  They are now analysing the data
 https://www.ramblers.org.uk/get-involved/campaign-with-us/dont-lose-your-way-2026.aspx
That still does not prevent people from emailing  the ramblers association to any missing ones that they found. They still could be missed from this project. I found quite a few.

barewirewalker

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3249
Re: Edgelands, P.U.T. and Lockdown?
« Reply #27 on: 19:37:05, 30/04/20 »
I get at least 1 email a day from Shirehall. Covid updates are relentless; the most frequent exhortation for moral boosting is about contact with nature and thus about our access to the countryside. I live in a town hemmed in by estates owned hereditary landowners trying to maintain a squierarchical lifestyle.


P.U.T. is challenging this, it is showing the social need and following the tracks of those pushing the boundaries is an object lesson. Should we equate this to those paths left off the DM? They show how social need led ways across boundaries of fields, holdings and even estates themselves. It is the objectives these paths directed the traveler to which tells a story, now the reasons and objectives have changed but still the underlying social need gets tangled up with social pretension.
BWW
Their Land is in Our Country.

barewirewalker

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3249
Re: Edgelands, P.U.T. and Lockdown?
« Reply #28 on: 10:54:20, 20/05/20 »
The area that I have been able to walk during lockdown is a @ 1600 acres and has a periphery of @ 7 Miles, a few years ago I would have been able to push these distances a bit further. There was little evidence of PUT before lockdown apart from shortcuts to a RoW taken mostly by dog walkers and some teenage dens in woods. The tracks that have developed during lockdown are quite interesting, I think a wider range of the public have discovered just how beautiful this area is, but their ability to fully explore is not handicapped by respect of 'private land' but more out of ignorance of how to exploit terrain.


Were many of the RoWs we now use PUT from 200 years ago. Then the motivation was earning a living and need to reach destinations on foot. Now leisure is an important motivation, having direct links to public physical and mental health.


In my mind I have been mapping the trails I have tracked, observed the users and tried to guess the routes. Discreetly I have been able to converse with a few, only being able to infer from a quickly passed greetings or remark relevant facts. But the little I can guess is quite interesting.

One trail follows a field margin, despite there being a RoW across the middle of the field and early on I noticed the clockwise and anti clockwise ways, as weeks have passed the footfall has beaten a solid track around the field of about 0.75 mile. The crop is field beans and though not field margin has been left, there is negligable damage to the crop.

Returning from one of my more devious routes with Mrs BWW, we met a mother and young teenage son running along part of this field margin, when we joined the main high way this couple caught up with us. They could only have run around that field. The distance of traffic free trial was 1 mile, by the time they passed us on the pavement their action was jogging. There are more reasons for choosing a route than I can think up, I have no doubt.


Shame to think after lockdown nature will eradicate many of these trails, and perhaps they are worthy of anthropological study. I expect to see a few more privacy signs, which will make some small contribution to the recovery of rural industry.
BWW
Their Land is in Our Country.

Toxicbunny

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 168
Re: Edgelands, P.U.T. and Lockdown?
« Reply #29 on: 11:26:12, 20/05/20 »
I think it depends where you live. I only use ROW or permissive paths I dont use unofficial paths as it's tresspass.