Author Topic: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass  (Read 3220 times)

windyrigg

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Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
« Reply #30 on: 15:00:58, 26/08/20 »
Signed!

April

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Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
« Reply #31 on: 18:58:20, 26/08/20 »
I have signed it but I think I may already have signed it. The petition started in Mar this year. Was it posted on here?  :-\
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Birdman

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Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
« Reply #32 on: 20:09:54, 26/08/20 »
108,458 signatures

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richardh1905

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Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
« Reply #33 on: 07:02:48, 27/08/20 »
I have signed it but I think I may already have signed it. The petition started in Mar this year. Was it posted on here?  :-\


I don't think that it would allow you to use the same email address twice.
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barewirewalker

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Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
« Reply #34 on: 10:53:45, 27/08/20 »
Has anyone read the “Government responded / read the full response” link underneath the petition?
 
Amongst other things, it says:
 
“Such measures would not affect ramblers, the right to roam or rights of way. Instead, measures could be applied in specific circumstances relating to trespass with intent to reside. ”
Really, if this is truly a Walking Forum, should we not be looking deeper for the connection between the dangers inherent in this proposed legislation and how there is a connection with our freedom of the countryside.

For centuries landowners have been able to manouvre social responsibility away from themselves. GWM reminds us of his family connections with travelers. My family also had a connection as tenant farmers we had to make space and provide employment for travelers. As with this issue and that of access the repeated abrogation of responsibility by those, who hold large areas of our countryside in freehold has not been fully compensated.

These traveling families have split between the traditional and a less socially acceptable off shoot that has caused general public alienation. I experienced the beginning of this in the 1960's, since then the landowners have hived off tenant farmers as well as the historical hospitality for travelers.

All too often the occupiers of our countryside have used the excuse of criminality to limit access, this goes way back to the Lord of the Manor protecting hunting rights.

A bad landowner, who does not respect the wishes of others to share those elements of the countryside outside of food production deserves to be trespassed on.

As with Lostways there is too much false news being used to backup false claims.



BWW
Their Land is in Our Country.

GoneWest

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Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
« Reply #35 on: 12:01:50, 27/08/20 »

A bad landowner, who does not respect the wishes of others to share those elements of the countryside outside of food production deserves to be trespassed on.



As a walker who would also like better access to our countryside, I nevertheless feel the need to distance myself from this assertion, which is presented as if trespass were a "human right".

 While I might, myself, dislike some of the laws we have and while I respect the right of others to disagree with me about the proposed changes to this particular one, I cannot accept that someone who is abiding by the law - in however an unfriendly way - should "deserve" to be treated in an unlawful manner by others.

ninthace

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Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
« Reply #36 on: 12:14:12, 27/08/20 »


As a walker who would also like better access to our countryside, I nevertheless feel the need to distance myself from this assertion, which is presented as if trespass were a "human right".

 While I might, myself, dislike some of the laws we have and while I respect the right of others to disagree with me about the proposed changes to this particular one, I cannot accept that someone who is abiding by the law - in however an unfriendly way - should "deserve" to be treated in an unlawful manner by others.
While grateful for the Mass Trespass of the past, I do not feel promoting confrontation by deliberate trespass will be helpful to the cause of opening up the countryside.  I find myself in agreement with GoneWest.
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WhitstableDave

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Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
« Reply #37 on: 12:14:56, 27/08/20 »
Really, if this is truly a Walking Forum, should we not be looking deeper for the connection between the dangers inherent in this proposed legislation and how there is a connection with our freedom of the countryside.
...

I think you might be making an assumption about why people join a forum about walking. Some will no doubt share your views, but others will not. I'm one of the others.  :)

My primary interest in walking lies in the fitness and health benefits. That doesn't mean that I'm not interested in fauna, flora, views or landscapes, simply that (for me) these aspects of walking are very pleasant bonuses. To illustrate this, I can point to having walked many more miles during the lockdown than I would have done otherwise - because my wife and I bought a treadmill. As a consequence, my fitness has improved over the last several months and I've also taken up running.

I like having aims and targets, which I use partly for motivation and partly to gain a sense of achievemant. I'm interested in distances and speed, but I'm also trying to walk in every part of Kent, so for a few years now I've been working out and walking routes all over the county. Which brings me to my main point...

I use public rights of way and open access land, and that's perfectly sufficient for me. Perhaps I'm just lucky that Kent has more than 4,400 miles of public footpaths, bridleways and byways.

I've never yet felt the need to ignore signs about private land - I'm perfectly happy to clock up my miles exploring the countryside in a non-confrontational manner.  ;)
« Last Edit: 12:20:15, 27/08/20 by WhitstableDave »

BuzyG

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Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
« Reply #38 on: 12:42:32, 27/08/20 »
I think you might be making an assumption about why people join a forum about walking. Some will no doubt share your views, but others will not. I'm one of the others.  :)

My primary interest in walking lies in the fitness and health benefits. That doesn't mean that I'm not interested in fauna, flora, views or landscapes, simply that (for me) these aspects of walking are very pleasant bonuses. To illustrate this, I can point to having walked many more miles during the lockdown than I would have done otherwise - because my wife and I bought a treadmill. As a consequence, my fitness has improved over the last several months and I've also taken up running.

I like having aims and targets, which I use partly for motivation and partly to gain a sense of achievemant. I'm interested in distances and speed, but I'm also trying to walk in every part of Kent, so for a few years now I've been working out and walking routes all over the county. Which brings me to my main point...

I use public rights of way and open access land, and that's perfectly sufficient for me. Perhaps I'm just lucky that Kent has more than 4,400 miles of public footpaths, bridleways and byways.

I've never yet felt the need to ignore signs about private land - I'm perfectly happy to clock up my miles exploring the countryside in a non-confrontational manner.  ;)


Dave I share much of your view of walking.  My main personal interest in signing. Is that there are many disputed/assumed but not marked.  Row in Devon and Cornwall. Paths that just simply stop, one field short of open access land are typical examples.  I often walk these routes, as do many others and yes I have been challenged by the land owners on a few occasions, as they want to shut them down.  This act would push the balance in their favour on all such paths.  I for one have no wish to land up in court discussing the matter, so would likely stop using them meaning the rest of the marked Row would soon fall out of use too and effectively be lost.

Here is a typical example. Priddacombe on Bodmin moor, SX167769

You will see others in that area too.
« Last Edit: 12:49:29, 27/08/20 by BuzyG »

barewirewalker

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Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
« Reply #39 on: 12:53:11, 27/08/20 »
Sadly I live in a county (Shropshire) that blocks the rising number of people, who look for longer routes, walking from the East Anglian coast to the Welsh coast and this is unnecessary on grounds of Agriculture. The reasons are selfish and contrary to the better interest of the rural economy.
In Hereford the landowner, who wrote the 2012 CLA's policy on access owns a large chunk of Offa's Dyke, 10 miles away from the Offa's Dyke path, which misguides knowledge of our history. This hereditary landowner owns land in an area of 11 square miles without RoWs, blocking approach to the only non urban bridge over the River Wye for 20 miles.

Simple use of field margins could open up many miles of waterside, we pay subsidies to encourage spray boundaries, these field margins are often used to encourage game yet, people are kept off them, even when road side ways could offset obviously dangerous road condition, that should be considered under H&S law.

Landowners have been politically pampered for centuries, it is time they faced up to being fully paid up members of the Human race.
BWW
Their Land is in Our Country.

barewirewalker

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Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
« Reply #40 on: 13:06:13, 27/08/20 »


As a walker who would also like better access to our countryside, I nevertheless feel the need to distance myself from this assertion, which is presented as if trespass were a "human right".

 While I might, myself, dislike some of the laws we have and while I respect the right of others to disagree with me about the proposed changes to this particular one, I cannot accept that someone who is abiding by the law - in however an unfriendly way - should "deserve" to be treated in an unlawful manner by others.
But trespass is not illegal, doing damage is, that is why it is a civil disagreement. There is a footpath near Much Wenlock that clearly leads to a dangerous road crossing. The only sensible way to cross this dangerous road is quite clear, there is a ride and gate to a direct road crossing, yet the owner of the land makes obvious obstruction to the safer alternative.
In my view this landowner is breaking H&S law, because every time he puts up barbed wire He should do a safety assessment.
BWW
Their Land is in Our Country.

WhitstableDave

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Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
« Reply #41 on: 18:52:50, 27/08/20 »
I'm sure my questions will be thought naive, but I have to ask...

Where is the line?

My wife and I own an average house with an average-sized garden. Are we landowners? If not, then how much land would we need to own to become landowners? We've got a front lawn. If someone pitches a tent on it and wild camps on our property, but causes no damage, could they be arrested or would I have to visit my solicitor to begin a civil action for trespass?

I've got lots more questions, but for now I'd be happy just to know where the line is...

barewirewalker

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Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
« Reply #42 on: 19:39:08, 27/08/20 »
I also own my own property, free of mortgage, but my 30 or so square yards is hardly going to impact of the 5yds of countryside I border. Yet I managed 900 acres of farm land that had been tenanted as far back as my great grandfathers marriage. I still have to consider if it necessary for the postman to reach my front door and provide a safe way when it is iced.

Harry Cotterell farms 2000 acres of Herefordshire, within is an important historical section of Offa's Dyke, yet he writes, authoritatively that landowners are best placed to decide, who has access to their land. His section of Offa's Dyke remains in private domain.

For as long as I have discussed access matters with farmers, the old hack argument that I should equate my garden with their occupation, has been the central core of the logic. If you start to evaluate the terrain, features and infrastructure beyond the boundaries of a particular area of 'private land' reasons become apparent for a need to cross, visit or utilize for safety reasons, which do not impinge on the agricultural use. This is the part of land, as an asset, that should be recognized as having communal value.


I can suggest several special places on the land I used to farm that should be part of public access, they are now in the process of being trashed by land managers blind to their potential.

Should the current owner of a house that was built in a special location share, should the owner of 5000 acres be aware why people might or even need to cross his land? Would the sharing of a bridge over a motorway or railway line link cross country ways that could grow in major lines of trekking?

Where is the line? Historic immorality in selfish acquisition has perhaps left a jagged line, where the boundaries need to be explored with a new understanding.
 
BWW
Their Land is in Our Country.

WhitstableDave

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Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
« Reply #43 on: 20:11:10, 27/08/20 »
Sorry, but I'm none the wiser.

I gather the line is somewhere between the size of our plot of land and someone else's bigger plot of land.

I'd like it to be illegal for someone to camp on our front lawn without permission, but since I don't know where the line is then I'll have to accept that it should be illegal for people to camp on other people's property without permission too - however big it is.

gunwharfman

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Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
« Reply #44 on: 20:20:41, 27/08/20 »
Re: Landowners

I personally would interpret this word as a 'code' which will tell someone that you may be talking to if you are "one of us" or "not one of us.'

It the same about tea/dinner/supper, toilet/bathroom/loo or lounge/sitting room,/drawing room etc, all clues to let someone, or for that matter for you to know if you or they are part of their lifestyle of if someone is part of yours. Words such as these are used to probe as to what layer of sociaty you belong to. Its all very subtle.

I had an experience of this when my son went to Edinburgh University, (or was I suppossed to sat the University of Edinburgh?) whilst at a parents evening I was asked by a parent what my son was 'reading,' I was not asked what my son was 'studying.' Being working class I replied that he was studying Spanish and German, second mistake, I should have said 'Languages' then followed it up by identifying Spanish and German. When I used word 'studying' I gave the game away, he knew that I was not "one of us" and he never spoke to me again.

I was once advised that if I want to identify a book to someone, I should name the author, not the book title, that comes afterwards. So I remember once testing this out and told a 'Mrs Bouguot neighbour' that I 'read' Marx in the 60's. For a short while I was 'in' but then she found out that I wasn't one of the 'in' people because I let myself down with the misuse of other words.

So like you I own my own house and have a postage stamp sized garden (real grass) not paving slabs or decking (that's very ASDA you know!!!) so I'm a landowner.   If you have paving slabs or decking you are not! ::)  :P  :-*