Author Topic: Did they Trespass...or not  (Read 1710 times)

barewirewalker

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Re: Did they Trespass...or not
« Reply #15 on: 11:13:24, 24/09/20 »

We see in the 1882 map south of Cross House a similar offset pavement, today's track seems to have been part of the road network. There is also an offset pavement but in today's OS mapping it is a right of way that coincides with the line of the track. The RoW leaves the track where the footpath starts and this gives 2/3 mile cross field footpath into Churchstoke.
In my mind this backs up the separation of pedestrian traffic from following the roads because livestock traffic made the roads impassable for those travelling on foot.
If we adopt this line of thought, it would indicate that the flow of people traveling to Churchstoke started way beyond Sidnal and points on other roads. A direct contradiction of the assumptions churned out in many articles about footpaths. The right of way shown has made it onto the Definitive Map. How may other Offset Pavements are there that might be showing how Strength of Way (historical numbers of people using them) indicate a lostway.

This example also shows that the pavement effect can be removed quite some distance from the muddy road it is avoiding.

BWW
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barewirewalker

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Re: Did they Trespass...or not
« Reply #16 on: 11:57:56, 27/09/20 »
A big thankyou to Ninthace and Eyelet for there interest in this topic. Their contributions have been most stimulating. The anomaly of the slipped or misplaced RoW, seems to to be more an effect of historical use and perhaps deserves a name such as the 'Offset Pavement Effect'.

Yesterday we put this very act of trespass into practice, we were walking with friends, who prefer to walk in shoes, nearly all the route was dry but after walking across an open field and crossing by a stile into a section of green lane, we were confronted with a sunken section of the lane flooded right across the lane. Fortunately due to many years of neglectful hedge management, the recently machine mutilated hedge was so porous with weed species that we were able to climb up the the field margin adjacent and continue our walk with dry feet.   ;D

I have noticed another example of the 'Offset Pavement Effect'. Probably so minimal that it would not have seemed relevant had I not been giving this idea some thought.
The footpath that starts by the telephone kiosk runs parallel the lane, starting near St Jame's Well. Is this merely a shortcut from the farms at Willstone to Cardington or is the continuation by grey lane designated an ORPA significant? If you care to copy and past these coordinates 52.55218, -2.73651 into Google Earth there is a rather damp picture of the lane in Street View.


Anyone wanting to explore further click here it is possible trace back, the end of the track continues along a number of footpaths and bridleways towards a market town.
So which was the greater destination the village pub or the market town, which is on one of the major roads for coaching traffic linking the county town of Shropshire to that of Herefordshire?
Is it coincidence that this area of between the Hope Bowdler Hills and Caradoc under Battle Rock is where I first read, on a county council information board of the connection between Scot's Pines and Drover's ways? Yet it was a Rights of way officer who told me that this anomaly is due to the inaccurate reconciliation between old and new mapping.


« Last Edit: 12:04:40, 27/09/20 by barewirewalker »
BWW
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ninthace

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Re: Did they Trespass...or not
« Reply #17 on: 13:39:35, 27/09/20 »
Looking at all those footpaths in that picture that run in straight lines while ignoring field boundaries and the underlying topography, without local knowledge, I would be taking the GoogleEarth and other sources of aerial views to check they reaaly existed before I planned a walk along them. 
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barewirewalker

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Re: Did they Trespass...or not
« Reply #18 on: 13:59:25, 27/09/20 »
I am not suggesting that any one should walk along them, more that people should question the reason why they are there, ask if they tell us more about the routes they once were.
To understand the history of our access network is to strengthen our ability to preserve it and allow it to grow with today's needs and shape it for future generations.
BWW
Their Land is in Our Country.

ninthace

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Re: Did they Trespass...or not
« Reply #19 on: 14:10:14, 27/09/20 »
I am not suggesting that any one should walk along them, more that people should question the reason why they are there, ask if they tell us more about the routes they once were.
To understand the history of our access network is to strengthen our ability to preserve it and allow it to grow with today's needs and shape it for future generations.
I'm sure there is a flaw in that argument somewhere.  If you don't intend they should be used, then they are just an interesting historical footnote.
Solvitur Ambulando

Mel

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Re: Did they Trespass...or not
« Reply #20 on: 14:27:46, 27/09/20 »
Looking closely at some of those RoWs, Iím not seeing a grey dashed line underneath some of them which tells me that, although a right of way from point A to point B exists, it may be different on the ground, if there at all. I see this as a subtle kind of open access land  ;)


Useful for working out where gates/stiles may be though.
Is the search over if you find nothing?
https://snailspacewalks.blogspot.com/

barewirewalker

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Re: Did they Trespass...or not
« Reply #21 on: 15:13:55, 27/09/20 »
But is the greater flaw in the arguments of those who would restrict access in generalizing that the access network is made up from shortcuts of yesteryear and old ways to work.

By tracing grey paths, rights of way and lanes, using these offset pavements as indications of strength of way it is possible to see far more purposeful routes to significant destinations. This method reveals lostways, in a topic here there is a mile of lostway that is probably a parallel route distant from the B5062 into Shrewsbury. Could this route have shared a common purpose with the offset pavement effect?


It could it be part of a 50 mile way across Shropshire, joining Cannock Chase to the Breiddens or the Tanant Valley.


Mel is right very useful for locating gates. Often essential for getting in or out of unforgiving boundaries.
BWW
Their Land is in Our Country.

shortwalker

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Re: Did they Trespass...or not
« Reply #22 on: 16:12:42, 27/09/20 »
Did our ancestors Trespass when they created the footpath network we walk today?




Am I right in thinking, 'If we look at how our rights of way came into being, we might learn how to refute some of those assumptions used by those opposed to opening up our countryside'.
Is the footpath from Sidnal N to Cross House S an anomaly or is there a logical, historical explanation?


The other option is you could be looking at the map and drawing conclusions that support your view.


Don't get me wrong, I am all for "right to roam" but maybe I am am not so evangelical about it.




ninthace

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Re: Did they Trespass...or not
« Reply #23 on: 16:14:44, 27/09/20 »
While acknowledging their origins, I see them now as a recreational resource to be enjoyed rather than lost.  I use them to construct routes of my own devising, usually circular in nature and ideally starting and finishing close to a hostelry.  In our part of the world, some of them have been strung together to make longer distance paths such as the Tarka Trail, the Devonshire Heartland Way, the Exe Valley Way and the Ridge and Valley walk.  They can give a walk a purpose but, like the Pennine Way, the Coast to Coast or the Two Moors Way, they are artificial tourist trails rather than ancient long lost routes.
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barewirewalker

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Re: Did they Trespass...or not
« Reply #24 on: 17:53:19, 27/09/20 »

The other option is you could be looking at the map and drawing conclusions that support your view.

That is exactly what the CLA's 2012 Policy on access was. They collected poorly researched examples, backed up with anecdotal examples from there own membership that has a history of objection and came up with a policy. As I have repeatedly tried to point out the main author and editor in chiefs owns the land in which the end of the Northern section of Offas's Dyke is 10 miles away from the Walk of it's name. No reference to the importance of historical features being made accessible to the public were hinted at in that policy.

While acknowledging their origins, I see them now as a recreational resource to be enjoyed rather than lost.  I use them to construct routes of my own devising, usually circular in nature and ideally starting and finishing close to a hostelry.   They can give a walk a purpose but, like the Pennine Way, the Coast to Coast or the Two Moors Way, they are artificial tourist trails rather than ancient long lost routes.

There is a sightline out of Central Wales that is centered on the Bromlow Callow, a circular coppice of Scot's Pine on a knoll. It is visible all over Shropshire and appears the same from all angles, was this a guiding beacon for Drovers as you look east from there the next prominent feature is the Wrekin to approach the Wrekin the River Severn crossing is at Cressage. There are several miles of lostway along this sightline.

If you were to suppose that this was an old drover's way out of Wales few would walk it, but reverse it, it immediately creates a corridor of pure countryside from the midlands to the Welsh coast. All I am doing is trying to add to a language we all talk about the ways we might want to walk, hardly evangelism.
BWW
Their Land is in Our Country.

pleb

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Re: Did they Trespass...or not
« Reply #25 on: 23:21:03, 27/09/20 »
Nevermind trespass. Those rotating flails slaughter the poor hedges.

barewirewalker

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Re: Did they Trespass...or not
« Reply #26 on: 11:23:07, 28/09/20 »
Nevermind trespass. Those rotating flails slaughter the poor hedges.
O0 they made it easy for us to climb through the hedge so that we could trespass. Just payback for all those chopped off fingerposts that has had me guessing about where to go over the years.  :D
BWW
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barewirewalker

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Re: Did they Trespass...or not
« Reply #27 on: 10:58:33, 29/09/20 »

The other option is you could be looking at the map and drawing conclusions that support your view.

I am putting a lot of thought into this observation and am extending the search to look beyond the immediate area of Chirbury / Churchstoke. I have found several other examples in the past that seem to backup this theory.
The connection with drover's ways may be tenuous but the market day route does seem to 'hold water' here'


The reason I spend the time doing this is the lack of intelligent reasoning in the landowners arguments that appear in the press. A pre-2010 the CLA spoke person on access wrote words to the effect, to achieve an understanding on access landowners would have to "Give away more than they took". This phrase was repeated by the President of the CLA, who published their current policy on access, when he was vice president. Such thinking disappeared in the actual policy document. Around that time there was a change in the holder of that position. A lawyer became the official spokesperson.

My guess is the previous spoke person was a Land Agent. Someone with this background would have more knowledge of the working of the countryside especially if he was a person of retirement age. He would be someone, who was around at the time the Definitive Map was compiled.

It is an instinct to lose evidence if it runs counter to opinions in today's corporate ethos, a practice that comes close to the legal profession. There was a strong ethic of honesty in the agricultural professions post war and up to the time I left in the late 1970's. It was the job of a land agent to keep hereditary landowners on the straight and narrow, a difficult task considering their breeding.
« Last Edit: 11:38:56, 29/09/20 by barewirewalker »
BWW
Their Land is in Our Country.

barewirewalker

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Re: Did they Trespass...or not
« Reply #28 on: 12:07:35, 03/10/20 »
I'm sorry, I do not see what point you are making. The implication from the map is there is a PROW immediately to the W of and parallel to the lane.  This is not born out by GoogleEarth - there is no southern access to the path in the form of a gate or stile and there are no finger post at either end.  The implication therefore is that in reality the lane and the path share a common track and this yet another piece of Definitive Map nonsense where somebody has drawn a line on a map without reference to reality.
Another look at the 1882 map and I see a similar offset path on the north side of the lane, designate footpath if followed back north of Rhiston. Had this anomaly been printed into today's OS 1:25k map, we might see a junction in these 2 paths that suggest an opening in the hedge opposite the cottage at Cross House, where an inspection on Google Earth will show a set of old wooden fencing set in the weak part of the Hawthorne hedge.

This leads me to think that the lane, now an overgrown track, that forms the cross roads at Cross House was the continuation of the way to Churchstoke. Why walk from Rhiston to Cross House in order to get to Churchstoke? Perhaps it was better for pedestrians to walk this way because there was livestock being driven from the north west along this road in. (and other herds and flocks coming from the west along the A489)


The indication of Historic strength of way is perhaps a way of proving the importance of lostways. In this instance there may be more signs of that than obvious improvements to the footpath network. There are places where this phenomena appears where there is clear need for the recovery of lostways to actually make an area accessible.


Was this historic strength of way a sign of social need being more powerful than the individual occupier of our countryside? Last night Mrs BWW was watching a program about restoring an old historic barn for domestic accommodation. I heard the Question; 'What makes it Historic? What makes it unique?'. Perhaps this also applies to the footpaths we walk on.
BWW
Their Land is in Our Country.

barewirewalker

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Re: Did they Trespass...or not
« Reply #29 on: 13:00:42, 04/10/20 »

When men drove cattle to market along the roads, how did ladies get there to sell their produce.
BWW
Their Land is in Our Country.