Author Topic: Slow Maps  (Read 995 times)

shortwalker

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Re: Slow Maps
« Reply #15 on: 16:42:46, 16/10/20 »
  Here is one.  The current enthusiasm for the project is a spin off from the restrictions on movement during the pandemic.  Already I have noticed that as freedom of movement has increased, the enthusiasm for walking for the sake of walking among the public at large has decreased. There is a real possibility that money will end up being spent establishing and maintaining a network of paths, many of which will be little trafficked because they do not lead anywhere anyone wants to go and, in so doing, the public funds available to spend maintaining other more worthwhile routes such as the current network of LDPs, will be reduced.
For me, it remains an interesting exercise, something anyone with a map could while away a few hours doing if they had the inclination.


Clearly you haven't read what the intention is. It is not too create a whole load of new "paths" but link up existing ones. Why do you say nobody wants to do them? You may not want to but others might.


It clearly isn't primarily aimed at those who already use OS maps etc to plot routes, but more at people who use routes already plotted out for them.


I really don't see a downside.


Surely the more people we can encourage to walk the better it will be for all of us?
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ninthace

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Re: Slow Maps
« Reply #16 on: 16:51:02, 16/10/20 »
pdstp - Please do not let your dislike of me blind you to rational discussion.  Words like "if" and "possibiity" were used in my reply. The idea seems to be to get the pavement bound masses into the countryside - a rural opinion is a valid one.  Also, if you consider both the positive and negative elements of a proposal at an early stage, you are better positioned to achieve the outcome you desirs.  This means seeing the nettles as well as the roses.
In this case, the network, will need, proposing (done), exploring (current stage), documenting, bringing into being (funding and possible legislation) and ongoing maintenance (physical, documentation (routes, closures etc) and publicity).  If you want to get a slight feel for what is involved, just look at the SWCP website than enlarge it to a national network.
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ninthace

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Re: Slow Maps
« Reply #17 on: 16:59:27, 16/10/20 »

Clearly you haven't read what the intention is. It is not too create a whole load of new "paths" but link up existing ones. Why do you say nobody wants to do them? You may not want to but others might.


It clearly isn't primarily aimed at those who already use OS maps etc to plot routes, but more at people who use routes already plotted out for them.


I really don't see a downside.


Surely the more people we can encourage to walk the better it will be for all of us?
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You may be right but go on to the ViewRanger and the OS websites and have a look at the pattern and characteristics of the routes on there.  Look in particular for routes that go from conurbation to conurbation using footpaths.  There aren't many,  this is probably because it is not a popular pattern of walking.  There is already nothing stopping people doing what the Slow Maps people propose - anyone who can read a map can do it.  What is new as far as i can see is formalising and publicising these routes in some way and that brings an expectation of delivery and maintenance.
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shortwalker

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Re: Slow Maps
« Reply #18 on: 17:23:39, 16/10/20 »
You may be right but go on to the ViewRanger and the OS websites and have a look at the pattern and characteristics of the routes on there.  Look in particular for routes that go from conurbation to conurbation using footpaths.  There aren't many,  this is probably because it is not a popular pattern of walking.  There is already nothing stopping people doing what the Slow Maps people propose - anyone who can read a map can do it.  What is new as far as i can see is formalising and publicising these routes in some way and that brings an expectation of delivery and maintenance.


And the problem with that, is?

WhitstableDave

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Re: Slow Maps
« Reply #19 on: 17:23:58, 16/10/20 »
I've read the article, watched the report on BBC News and visited the website. Each to their own, but I'm not enthusiastic enough to get involved.

Regarding path maintenance: As I write, I'm in dispute with Kent County Council at Ombudsman level because of their failure to fulfil their obligations - I'm quite proactive in that regard. Should a system of 'Slow Paths' come into being, then I assume these would be given a higher-than-average priority - perhaps similar to that of 'Promoted Paths' - in the triage system that prioritises path maintenance. This could have the effect of allowing lower priority rights-of-way to become even more neglected in an already overworked and underfunded system.

The perceived need for Slow Maps (seems to me) to be based largely on the total uselessness of Google's provision for walking routes. I've just asked Google to show me the best walking route between Whitstable and Faversham, about 10 miles away. Google completely ignored the blindingly obvious (to anyone who glances at an OS map) 'diamond' Saxon Shore Way route along the coast between the two towns, instead recommending a dangerous inland route along roads with blind bends and no footpath.

While many towns and other urban areas can be easily linked by 'recommended' walking routes, others cannot. For example, walking the 7 miles or so safely between Herne Bay and Canterbury on existing PRoWs and avoiding busy roads requires a much lengthier and very convoluted route. This could be done of course, but waymarking the route would involve a significant cost.

Finally (and perhaps selfishly!), I'm not interested in getting other people out walking - I'll leave that to them. I walk solo or with my immediate family. I've noticed a significant increase in the number of walkers, runners and cyclists in recent times, many of whom require me to take avoiding action if I'm to stay a sensible distance from them, because they don't seem too bothered. I'd be happy to return to the good old days when I'd hardly see another soul when I'm out and about...  ;)



pdstsp

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Re: Slow Maps
« Reply #20 on: 17:25:25, 16/10/20 »
Ninthace - I have no personal dislike of you as I have never met you.  I have found some of your comments on this forum a little unpleasant but that is all.  However, I do object to you suggesting I am not rational, as I think my questions of your approach to the suggestion which lies at the heart of this thread are valid.  You have stated things as if they are fact, when they are opinion. 


Anyway, moving on..


As far as I can see, this current project is designed to try to link urban places by use of paths and rights of way etc, which may exist on a map - I have not seen any mention of new paths being developed, merely an attempt to use the access network better.  Having said that, if a useful path could develop on an underused right of way, surely this is a good thing. And within walking distance for many millions of people, not just those who live in national parks etc.  In terms of cash - if the paths pass over privately owned land it is the landowners obligation to ensure they are clear, if I remember correctly.




GinAndPlatonic

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Re: Slow Maps
« Reply #21 on: 17:29:05, 16/10/20 »
Edit : sorry my daughter was talking about school today and I was side tracked..I missed a couple of sentences out.. :o


People hearing about this idea may start looking at maps where they never previously did , they  might see their town linked up with a village and go for it , when they realise they do not have to walk along main roads to get there. I`m sure it would need plenty of publicity and the cost of pushing it so more people take the idea on board might be a tad high , but Ordnance Survey have agreed to add the routes to its online data base and that is very encouraging .

Nothing ventured , nothing gained. Have people really started drifting that much back into their old life styles pre` March. ?  I do hope not and the roads are still much quieter than they were , so maybe not . Now with further lockdowns being more likely , I see a really long term change in peoples behaviour .

Travel abroad is much less attractive now and so many other things are changing , so why not lets walk to the next town if we have never done it before .
« Last Edit: 18:00:45, 16/10/20 by GinAndPlatonic »
Virtue is more to be feared than vice, because it's excesses are not subject to the regulation of conscience - Adam Smith

ninthace

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Re: Slow Maps
« Reply #22 on: 17:29:56, 16/10/20 »

And the problem with that, is?
It needs a start up and ongoing budget.  Paths are a Local Authority matter and they have no cash.  It is also a national idea which requires LAs to work together. Who is going to document and publish the routes?  Where do their funds come from?  etc etc
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shortwalker

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Re: Slow Maps
« Reply #23 on: 17:37:05, 16/10/20 »
It needs a start up and ongoing budget.  Paths are a Local Authority matter and they have no cash.  It is also a national idea which requires LAs to work together. Who is going to document and publish the routes?  Where do their funds come from?  etc etc


So we don't do give it a try?


As I said earlier if you took the trouble to actually read up on it, you may have a better idea.




ninthace

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Re: Slow Maps
« Reply #24 on: 17:45:28, 16/10/20 »

So we don't do give it a try?


As I said earlier if you took the trouble to actually read up on it, you may have a better idea.
I know it involves existing paths! But if that was just it, there would be no need to call for volunteers to walk and report on all the routes.  There is more to it than you seem to realise. 
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shortwalker

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Re: Slow Maps
« Reply #25 on: 17:46:21, 16/10/20 »
I've read the article, watched the report on BBC News and visited the website. Each to their own, but I'm not enthusiastic enough to get involved.

Regarding path maintenance: As I write, I'm in dispute with Kent County Council at Ombudsman level because of their failure to fulfil their obligations - I'm quite proactive in that regard. Should a system of 'Slow Paths' come into being, then I assume these would be given a higher-than-average priority - perhaps similar to that of 'Promoted Paths' - in the triage system that prioritises path maintenance. This could have the effect of allowing lower priority rights-of-way to become even more neglected in an already overworked and underfunded system.

The perceived need for Slow Maps (seems to me) to be based largely on the total uselessness of Google's provision for walking routes. I've just asked Google to show me the best walking route between Whitstable and Faversham, about 10 miles away. Google completely ignored the blindingly obvious (to anyone who glances at an OS map) 'diamond' Saxon Shore Way route along the coast between the two towns, instead recommending a dangerous inland route along roads with blind bends and no footpath.

While many towns and other urban areas can be easily linked by 'recommended' walking routes, others cannot. For example, walking the 7 miles or so safely between Herne Bay and Canterbury on existing PRoWs and avoiding busy roads requires a much lengthier and very convoluted route. This could be done of course, but waymarking the route would involve a significant cost.

Finally (and perhaps selfishly!), I'm not interested in getting other people out walking - I'll leave that to them. I walk solo or with my immediate family. I've noticed a significant increase in the number of walkers, runners and cyclists in recent times, many of whom require me to take avoiding action if I'm to stay a sensible distance from them, because they don't seem too bothered. I'd be happy to return to the good old days when I'd hardly see another soul when I'm out and about...  ;)


No perhaps about it, that is a selfish stance to take. It is also doesn't help your current dispute. The more people walking in the countryside the more councils are likely to listen to walkers.


The argument goes; "Mr Whistable Dave, you want us to spend money maintaining a path that from what we can see, only you and a few others use?"


Alternatively it could go: "Mr Whistable Dave, you want us to spend money maintaining a path that from what we can see, is frequently used by many walkers"


Which one is more likely to get funding? 


In the current climate legal obligations, are not as clear cut.
« Last Edit: 17:51:12, 16/10/20 by shortwalker »

pdstsp

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Re: Slow Maps
« Reply #26 on: 17:46:41, 16/10/20 »
The article makes no mention of large organisations, indeed it is a voluntary process at the moment, and states that it uses mostly existing paths - it merely seeks to ensure that these are truly walkable.  As far as publishing - OS have stated that they are behind the idea.  However, it is also a campaigning tool, potentially, but what on earth is wrong with that if it opens up more countryside which people have indicated that they would use?  Given the cash that is paid to ministers mates to provide poor quality IT solutions, the cost would be a drop in the ocean.

shortwalker

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Re: Slow Maps
« Reply #27 on: 17:50:09, 16/10/20 »
I know it involves existing paths! But if that was just it, there would be no need to call for volunteers to walk and report on all the routes.  There is more to it than you seem to realise.


Would you clear to explain that, in a bit more detail? because clearly I don't realise what is involved.






GinAndPlatonic

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Re: Slow Maps
« Reply #28 on: 18:08:26, 16/10/20 »
A good idea doesn`t always need a detailed plan before it morphs into something really tangible and coherent . Sometimes a good idea is just that .


I can see the merits in it and wouldn`t it be great if within the next few years more people started talking about what village or town they intend walking to next week. Instead of which shopping centre they are going to drive to next and buy yet more tat .
Virtue is more to be feared than vice, because it's excesses are not subject to the regulation of conscience - Adam Smith

ninthace

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Re: Slow Maps
« Reply #29 on: 18:10:40, 16/10/20 »

Would you clear to explain that, in a bit more detail? because clearly I don't realise what is involved.
The paths already exist but they have never been presented as a countrywide point to point network.  This network has to be put together from the feedback from the volunteers, redrawn and adjusted as necessary depending on their reports.  The paths then have to be assembled on a website so people can find and select routes.  The routes themselves have to be described and doucumented as well as links to public transport so people can get back to their starting points,  Downstream the paths have to be maintained (either directly or indirectly via interaction with the landowners).  Paths are living things and can become impassable for a variety reasons so temporary closures and diversions will have to be published.  And so on.
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