Author Topic: If YOU was the landowner...  (Read 1326 times)

pauldawes

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Re: If YOU was the landowner...
« Reply #30 on: 17:06:16, 14/11/20 »
True but as a landowner who found someone wandering across a field my response would not be to rush home and ask the council to put my field on the definitive map  toute de suite!


How can we be sure of that?


Mel mentioned nothing about the personality and values of the landowner.


Plenty of landowners actually allow permissive paths, and seem fairly relaxed about people wandering around as long as the wanderers palpably cause no damage.


This is the sort of issue that BWW has given a lot of thought to (I agree with Andies that I’d be amazed if BWW hasn’t thought through issues like this from several points of view), and he has often argued persuasively that farmers and landowners have much to gain by being welcoming.

ninthace

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Re: If YOU was the landowner...
« Reply #31 on: 17:13:45, 14/11/20 »
I refer the honourable member to the answer I gave previously
"In which case Mel's hypothetical situation could not have arisen in the first place! 😀"
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archaeoroutes

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Re: If YOU was the landowner...
« Reply #32 on: 17:17:58, 14/11/20 »
Without the dog, I'd probably do the same as pretty much every farmer I've met when walking in that situation has done to me - give the people taking a shortcut across my land a little wave or a nod and a smile or touch my fingers to my cap. That does assume no history of problems and that there isn't a particularly sensitive species in my wildlife area, as neither was mentioned in the OP.
With the dog, however, that would force me to be more active. As I'd want to ask them to put it back on the lead, I'd have to stop and talk to them, which places me in an awkward position of having properly acknowledged their presence. Having done that, if I didn't point out they shouldn't be there, I'd be tacitly approving their actions which could come back to haunt me.
« Last Edit: 17:26:49, 14/11/20 by archaeoroutes »
Walking routes visiting ancient sites in Britain's uplands: http://www.archaeoroutes.co.uk

tonyk

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Re: If YOU was the landowner...
« Reply #33 on: 17:22:56, 14/11/20 »
 I suppose the logical thing would be to put barbed wire up and a sign informing people it is private property with no public right of way.If the guys with the rucksacks and dog looked like criminals I would most likely challenge them with a shotgun,which as a farmer/landowner I could legally own.

 The original question is how would you respond if you were a landowner rather than as a walker presented with no PROW.
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Dovegirl

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Re: If YOU was the landowner...
« Reply #34 on: 17:31:13, 14/11/20 »
I would be concerned about potential damage to the wildlife margin and, as the dog wasn't on a lead, damage to my crops.  So I would explain these concerns to the walkers, in a non-confrontational manner, and ask if they would mind putting the dog on a lead.  I'd point out that there wasn't a PROW through the field but I'd wouldn't ask them to turn back. 

pauldawes

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Re: If YOU was the landowner...
« Reply #35 on: 17:36:20, 14/11/20 »
I suppose the logical thing would be to put barbed wire up and a sign informing people it is private property with no public right of way.If the guys with the rucksacks and dog looked like criminals I would most likely challenge them with a shotgun,which as a farmer/landowner I could legally own.

 The original question is how would you respond if you were a landowner rather than as a walker presented with no PROW.


Do you really believe that in the circumstances described challenging the guys with a shotgun is a reasonable thing to do?




tonyk

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Re: If YOU was the landowner...
« Reply #36 on: 17:53:06, 14/11/20 »

Do you really believe that in the circumstances described challenging the guys with a shotgun is a reasonable thing to do?

 I will rephrase that:Challenging the guys whilst holding a shotgun rather than pointing it at them whilst questioning their intentions .Note,I also said if they looked like criminals rather than walkers.These people could be poachers,hare coursers or butchers who kill livestock in the field.All three groups are likely to be carrying some kind of arm,either a bladed weapon or a firearm and often have the mindset to use it.Fighting one guy who is your own size is difficult and if they are bigger or heavier the chance of walking away is very small so carrying firearms if you can legally do so is the sensible option.
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Andies

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Re: If YOU was the landowner...
« Reply #37 on: 17:57:31, 14/11/20 »
In which case Mel's hypothetical situation could not have arisen in the first place! 😀


Perhaps all the money made by your ancestors grinding down the poor would have given you  the resources to do it 😄
I take your point ninthace.
The point I was trying to make which I think needs to be considered in the context of the OP's scenario is: how did the dead end path come about? This seems a fundamental part of the scenario. Do the walkers turn round in the woodland or do they then trespass as indicated? What motivates the walkers to trespass, and is it just because the non existent ROW is actually a lost way?
If it was my view would be as a responsible landowner that I would accept this, encourage the adoption of the route as a ROW, and in return hope that users would keep to the ROW and keep their dogs under control. Far better to sort the problem than have an ongoing issue with trespass I think  :)

pauldawes

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Re: If YOU was the landowner...
« Reply #38 on: 18:18:28, 14/11/20 »
I will rephrase that:Challenging the guys whilst holding a shotgun rather than pointing it at them whilst questioning their intentions .Note,I also said if they looked like criminals rather than walkers.These people could be poachers,hare coursers or butchers who kill livestock in the field.All three groups are likely to be carrying some kind of arm,either a bladed weapon or a firearm and often have the mindset to use it.Fighting one guy who is your own size is difficult and if they are bigger or heavier the chance of walking away is very small so carrying firearms if you can legally do so is the sensible option.


I still think it would be an incredibly dangerous thing to do, with far more probability of a bad outcome than a good one. Mels original hypothetical case doesn’t seem to me to contain any strong clues that the guys could be poaching or up to serious “no good” of another sort.


A complete tangent coming up. A long time ago I started a thread asking for advice on best way to proceed for a nephew involved in an agricultural accident. You gave a lot of advice which I passed on. Case was recently settled (took years) and your advice was darn useful. Thanks

shortwalker

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Re: If YOU was the landowner...
« Reply #39 on: 18:19:21, 14/11/20 »
I take your point ninthace.
The point I was trying to make which I think needs to be considered in the context of the OP's scenario is: how did the dead end path come about? This seems a fundamental part of the scenario. Do the walkers turn round in the woodland or do they then trespass as indicated? What motivates the walkers to trespass, and is it just because the non existent ROW is actually a lost way?
If it was my view would be as a responsible landowner that I would accept this, encourage the adoption of the route as a ROW, and in return hope that users would keep to the ROW and keep their dogs under control. Far better to sort the problem than have an ongoing issue with trespass I think  :)


But you still appear to coming at this as a walker placed in the position of being a landowner.  More likely a landowner isn't interested in if there was some ROW in some ancient time. He/she is more likely to be interested in what they currently have.

Bigfoot_Mike

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Re: If YOU was the landowner...
« Reply #40 on: 18:32:49, 14/11/20 »

How can we be sure of that?


Mel mentioned nothing about the personality and values of the landowner.

By definition, anyone answering knows the personality and values of the land owner ... read the question again.

GinAndPlatonic

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Re: If YOU was the landowner...
« Reply #41 on: 19:02:46, 14/11/20 »
By definition, anyone answering knows the personality and values of the land owner ... read the question again.
Could you quote where it shows the  "personality and values of the land owner" . ?
I am curious .
Virtue is more to be feared than vice, because it's excesses are not subject to the regulation of conscience - Adam Smith

shortwalker

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Re: If YOU was the landowner...
« Reply #42 on: 19:09:58, 14/11/20 »
Could you quote where it shows the  "personality and values of the land owner" . ?
I am curious .


The question says "you" are the land owner.  So some have taken it to mean themselves, but just owning land. I have interpreted it to mean what would I do as a land owner. Hence why some would welcome walkers and others less so. 

GinAndPlatonic

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Re: If YOU was the landowner...
« Reply #43 on: 19:20:56, 14/11/20 »
Understood  O0
This is beginning to read like a " lay down on the couch and tell me what is troubling you ".  :D
Virtue is more to be feared than vice, because it's excesses are not subject to the regulation of conscience - Adam Smith

tonyk

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Re: If YOU was the landowner...
« Reply #44 on: 19:21:58, 14/11/20 »

I still think it would be an incredibly dangerous thing to do, with far more probability of a bad outcome than a good one. Mels original hypothetical case doesn’t seem to me to contain any strong clues that the guys could be poaching or up to serious “no good” of another sort.




 All Mel's post tells us that it is two guys in their thirties wearing rucksacks and having a loose dog.Could be anyone.Obviously other parameters come into play such as how many walkers use the path and any criminal activity in the area in previous weeks,etc.
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