Author Topic: An interesting read?  (Read 1082 times)

Andies

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An interesting read?
« on: 14:38:56, 17/11/20 »

Worth a look if you have some time to spare.
www.craddocks.co.uk
The pannageMan blog has a particularly interesting article by John Andrews one time Suffolk Ramblers footpath officer (April 2019) titled  "From a Wild Frontier to the Promised Land?".
Says more about the Suffolk experience than I ever could  :D

« Last Edit: 14:57:10, 17/11/20 by Andies »

Andies

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Re: An interesting read?
« Reply #1 on: 14:37:16, 19/11/20 »
That certainly went down well given the considerable number of comments  :-[

ninthace

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Re: An interesting read?
« Reply #2 on: 15:28:47, 19/11/20 »
That certainly went down well given the considerable number of comments  :-[
I lost the will to live on the front page  :(
Solvitur Ambulando

Andies

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Re: An interesting read?
« Reply #3 on: 15:35:04, 19/11/20 »
P
I lost the will to live on the front page  :(
The blog entry I referred to was about Suffolk, so obviously of particular interest to me, but I did think John Andrews story really gave an insight into the issues around ROW?
In particular I thought BWW would enjoy it but perhaps even he gave up on this one?
Perhaps Mrs A is right and I'm just not like other people  :-X

barewirewalker

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Re: An interesting read?
« Reply #4 on: 17:08:09, 19/11/20 »
No, I was waiiiiiiiiiiiiiting, for those, who bring all sorts of injustices to our forum to have a say. I had a feeling it would be a long wait, the comment about a Black Hole was interesting as I laboured pretty well in vain to draw attention to many such features in a topic titled Black Holes or X (exclusion) zones about 5 years ago, I thought that those so keen to create routes would comment on their negative effect of these on our sport.
In all others, the playing surface is paramount to the execution of the sport, revered and studied to the finest detail, yet here we have such a cavalier attitude to the wholesale political corruption of the legal basis of our playing surface is reduced to 'No Comment' by the victims. :'(
BWW
Their Land is in Our Country.

Andies

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Re: An interesting read?
« Reply #5 on: 17:30:06, 19/11/20 »
Thanks BWW. I like you waited but in vain, so tried again.
Ninthace at least made his feelings clear although I would have hoped for something more from him given his previous posts.
John Andrews is no longer in Suffolk but is still very much involved in the battle to right the wrongs of the past. He has given me some great help and advice over the years, and I suspect few if any have done more to put lost ways back on the map than him.
Sadly I feel few herein are either bothered enough to read his story or if they have feel there is nothing to say afterwards :-\

pdstsp

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Re: An interesting read?
« Reply #6 on: 17:54:49, 19/11/20 »
Perhaps the fact that there are six other access related threads on the first page of this forum has something to do with the lack of response? What with Slow Maps, Ramblers membership, did they trespass, oops she did it again and Mel's scenarios, perhaps many did not have the time ro read the link?  I think its a bit harsh to have a pop at the rest of the forum.


I did read the link.  It is interesting in terms of confirming the difficulty of the process of reinstating lostways.  I remain committed in my small way to helping locally.

barewirewalker

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Re: An interesting read?
« Reply #7 on: 18:06:44, 19/11/20 »
I have just been thinking of an analogy to this theft of a counties ways, it is a bit like coming home to find your house has been burgled, your wages are missing and it is obvious, to you, that someone has been in your house but there is no evidence of breaking and entering.
You call the Police, they give you a cursory visit and say you have no evidence that anything is missing.
You go down the pub to drown your sorrows on tick, as the landlord is a friend. He is the man in the know; he tells you the 'fuzz' know that a rich kid is robbing just because he likes taking out on people, daddies wealthy and has bought him every conceivable pass key ever made. But daddy is the local mobster and is paying off the police.
You try to gain support with your fellow drinkers, they either don't want know or threaten you keep quiet as they are into the 'big man' for their other vices.

I remain committed in my small way to helping locally.

There are few who will give support, have recognised the signs, of the ungodly and give their support. Even buy you a drink in sympathy O0
« Last Edit: 18:10:28, 19/11/20 by barewirewalker »
BWW
Their Land is in Our Country.

ninthace

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Re: An interesting read?
« Reply #8 on: 18:22:00, 19/11/20 »
And therein you have the problem gents.  It is an interesting subject but to mobilise people to the cause you need to fire the public imagination.  BWW's post are often difficult to understand, sometime almost incomprehensible and bordering on monomania,  They are not likely to carry people along and possibly put people off (sorry).  Many other posts on the forum are on the theme of "landowners bad" often with an overtone of class bias.  On the other hand, the Ramblers have managed to mobilise people power and, by involving the public , they have gained much needed publicity for their cause.

My own opinion is as follows.  The trouble, if that is the word, is that we have a network of paths based on the needs of the past which is largely work, trade or commerce related, effectively rooted in what we would now regard as a third world requirement when people walked out of necessity.  As a result, and as far as I know, the UK is unique in having such a preserved path structure that has become almost sacrosanct.  This makes the network historically interesting but not, one could argue, aligned with a first world requirement of walking for leisure but they can be adapted for that purpose.  I know that this is sacrilige to many  but there are paths that, to be honest, now serve no purpose beyond being interesting historic relics but equally there are other paths that need to be kept and linked to provide a network of recreational routes.  If we are to spend time money and effort, then these are the paths that need to be prioritised and maintained.
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BuzyG

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Re: An interesting read?
« Reply #9 on: 19:25:11, 19/11/20 »
I lost the will to live on the front page  :(
I lost the will to read any further when someone mentioned Suffolk. ;)

barewirewalker

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Re: An interesting read?
« Reply #10 on: 10:18:02, 20/11/20 »
My own opinion is as follows.  The trouble, if that is the word, is that we have a network of paths based on the needs of the past which is largely work, trade or commerce related, effectively rooted in what we would now regard as a third world requirement when people walked out of necessity.  As a result, and as far as I know, the UK is unique in having such a preserved path structure that has become almost sacrosanct.  This makes the network historically interesting but not, one could argue, aligned with a first world requirement of walking for leisure but they can be adapted for that purpose.  I know that this is sacrilige to many  but there are paths that, to be honest, now serve no purpose beyond being interesting historic relics but equally there are other paths that need to be kept and linked to provide a network of recreational routes.  If we are to spend time money and effort, then these are the paths that need to be prioritised and maintained.
An opinion that runs parallel the arguments of Harry Cotterell, in the CLA's policy. Until you look at his own home area and realise he is not admitting to an 11 square mile black hole similar to that described in the blog in Sussex, caused, in all probability, by the same sort of motivation.
OKAY I call it the Corruption of the Definitive map  :D ;
  BWW's post are often difficult to understand, sometime almost incomprehensible and bordering on monomania, 
Its tough  :crazy2: but I got a thick skin, it's a bit like beating an old rusty drum with a stick, every time you hit it makes the bystander sound hears the same sound, but the corrosion that falls off the inside reveals interesting detail on the inside.

Perhaps I do not have quite as good a knack of communication as others who have spent their working lives being trained, the evolution of self learning sometimes means having to expose yourself to ridicule. I keep trying to explain what I feel, in the hope that the landowners of this country are not trusted, until they admit to the Corruption of the Definitive Map.


BWW
Their Land is in Our Country.

pdstsp

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Re: An interesting read?
« Reply #11 on: 10:26:38, 20/11/20 »
Keep going BWW, you have certainly made me think more about this issue since I returned to walking.  Don't let the naysayers grind you down.

Andies

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Re: An interesting read?
« Reply #12 on: 12:11:27, 20/11/20 »
More interesting comments which was of course the whole purpose of my posting the link. But a conversation of only five .Perhaps pdstsp has a point about too many threads on this subject, but it's not one I can rejoice in  :-\
I really like your theft analogy BWW , sums it up well for me  O0
Ninthace your assessment may actually be more representative of where this all goes. It fits with the Ramblers view coming out of the lost ways project, it is the approach Suffolk's ROW Department has expounded to me in the past, but as BWW comments it actually sits rather close beside that of the CLA.  Consequently I wonder if the argument as I see it is already lost  :-\
For example I recall a conversation some years ago about a deadend path with Suffolk's ROW Department where I pointed out the absence of access across a ditch, no signage, or evidence of the route on the ground. Their response was it's low priority re a bridge, signage when funds permit, and that they didn't believe in the circumstances that the landowner needed to reinstate (not that it had been for years) the footpath. Contrary to their own rules of course, but missing the point that the footpath shouldn't have been a deadend as where it stopped was the parish boundary, and it just hadn't made it onto the definitive map in one parish. The moral for me is that history does matter, it explains a lot, we cannot just write off these routes. No one uses the path as it stands but I believe they would if the rest of it had made it onto the definitive map. Can I trust that it will make it on by 2026, will it meet the criteria to be classed as "useful" (assuming of course there is sufficient evidence to back up a claim), and do I think the system can cope. I suspect not  :(
And finally:
I lost the will to read any further when someone mentioned Suffolk. ;)
I know little of Cornwall except that Mrs A's ancestors came from there, so I understand the lack of patience, but go on give it a read Buzy G it's good stuff, honest  :)

barewirewalker

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Re: An interesting read?
« Reply #13 on: 20:10:39, 20/11/20 »
Keep going BWW, you have certainly made me think more about this issue since I returned to walking.  Don't let the naysayers grind you down.
No Chance  ;D , do I hear groans of despair, but please look for the humour, the landowners with centuries of self importance to obscure their weak intellects do have a weak case, it just needs people to reverse 'knuckling the forhead' and start to really question the reasons why the country side cannot be more accessible.


I would really like them to make a better case, Cotterells' Common Sense policy on access was so lamentably short on intellect that it should of been made use of to ridicule the landowners out of sight before the Ramblers exposed the Corruption of the Definitive map with the recent survey of lostways.
BWW
Their Land is in Our Country.

barewirewalker

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Re: An interesting read?
« Reply #14 on: 09:23:06, 21/11/20 »
The moral for me is that history does matter, it explains a lot, we cannot just write off these routes. No one uses the path as it stands but I believe they would if the rest of it had made it onto the definitive map. Can I trust that it will make it on by 2026, will it meet the criteria to be classed as "useful" (assuming of course there is sufficient evidence to back up a claim), and do I think the system can cope. I suspect not  :(
I think that the basic logic is;The OS surveys pre 1949 was the prime source of information used by those charged by Act of Parliament to created the Definitive Map. A simple comparison of any area confirms this. Many of those parts missing are parts of old routes and it was common knowledge that party political disagreement and social distinction of that time created these black holes.
Unlike yourself I have been trying to work the effect of lost ways into an imaginary future access network, rather than immerse myself in the complexity of lostway reinstatement.
To those reading the blogs, it is understandable that the shear volume of words that the legal and bureaucratic can generate around a simple problem is mind boggling.
I am thankful you have taken the trouble to post this link and there is useful proof there that the DM was Corrupted and explanation how other smaller anomalies in other parts of the country came about.

Ask yourself how those parish councilors charged with collating the information for the creation of the definitive map came about it. To the private person large scale maps were rather expensive, this is why the type of walk guide written by Arthur Wainwright was so popular, it gave more information than the Bartholomew maps or the 1 inch per mile ordnance surveys were only just coming into being and were rather expensive for the average wage earner of that time.

However every county town had a printer, who was a stockist of OS maps, these would have several copies of every sheet of the 25in per mile sheets used by land agents and property lawyers. I remember going into such printer called Adnitt and Naunton in the Square in Shrewsbury, where they had banks of ancient wooden plan chests with the A1 or A2 sheets of these maps. These were the very maps the Ramblers have based their survey on.


It is easier enough to visualize how this corruption took place armed with the knowledge of the sort of people around in those days, today's landowners are very adept social chameleons, but their motivation of complete control of our countryside has gone through very little change since then.
BWW
Their Land is in Our Country.