Author Topic: An interesting read?  (Read 1083 times)

ninthace

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Re: An interesting read?
« Reply #15 on: 10:53:06, 21/11/20 »
BWW.  You continue to rail about the "corruption" of the Definitive Map but that event is an injustice long in the past.  Rather than continuing to rail about the perfidy of landowners probably long dead, how do you propose the issue be resolved given the 2029 deadline?
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barewirewalker

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Re: An interesting read?
« Reply #16 on: 11:24:09, 21/11/20 »
Just using it as terminology for the cause of the many miles of lostways found by the ramblers survey. I though my previous post might be of help to Andies, not many people knew about the 20 in/mile edition of OS before it became viewable on the Library of Scotland website. It's availability in the 1950's and 60's was so little known.
A secret weapon of land agents, perhaps,  :o , I knew the land agents around Shrewsbury, a town cut off from it's surrounding countryside by Private Estates. Snobbery, Alcoholism, Blind allegiance to Aristocracy and low intelligence was among their redeeming features. About time there was a bit of plain speaking about the causes. Wish I didn't need to rail, perhaps when I am no longer doing it this will be neatly swept under the carpet.

Personally I would welcome some in depth controversy about the future, how we could with a critical approach to accepted notions of land management improve the access network. Perhaps it might lead to improvements.

I have just read a Farm Security article in the British Farmer, The Deputy President of the NFU thinks a Right of Way on his farm to be his 'Biggest Risk', yet the police audit makes no mention of it. In any other walk of life that would be labelled as discrimination  ;D
BWW
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ninthace

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Re: An interesting read?
« Reply #17 on: 12:07:55, 21/11/20 »
................A secret weapon of land agents, perhaps,  :o , I knew the land agents around Shrewsbury, a town cut off from it's surrounding countryside by Private Estates. Snobbery, Alcoholism, Blind allegiance to Aristocracy and low intelligence was among their redeeming features. About time there was a bit of plain speaking about the causes. Wish I didn't need to rail, perhaps when I am no longer doing it this will be neatly swept under the carpet...............
There you go again.  All that happened 70 years ago.  Many of those involved will be deceased  and if you knew the Land Agents of 1949 you must be one of the few left,  I have been collecting my pension for a while now and I wasn't born then.  Public attitudes and respect for hereditary authority have changed.  Move on.  Tackle today's issues.
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barewirewalker

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Re: An interesting read?
« Reply #18 on: 12:13:46, 21/11/20 »
Move on.  Tackle today's issues.
Understanding History helps in dealing with today's issues or so I am told  :-\
BWW
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ninthace

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Re: An interesting read?
« Reply #19 on: 12:24:44, 21/11/20 »
Understanding History helps in dealing with today's issues or so I am told  :-\
Not if that is all that you do and constant repetition will not alter it    O0   I suspect the motivation of modern landowners is different.
« Last Edit: 12:30:28, 21/11/20 by ninthace »
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jimbob

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Re: An interesting read?
« Reply #20 on: 12:34:32, 21/11/20 »
BWW you must be into your nineties by now, given the times you were adult enough to be going to those meetings.

Yes, learn from history, but act in a manner befitting the times.

You are correct that there are owners who will not give way in these matters.
History taught us that direct action by the Mass Tresspas people did more for us than any amount of committee meetings, where the agenda was set by those resisting change.

The way forward is not constant denigration of those who you clearly dislike but by working out how to get what we want in a coordinated and easily understood way.

I would personally rather see another wave of mass trespass into the offices of those council officials who are not responding to the concerns of those of us who want to see a revision of the definitive maps done in a neutral and impartial way.
But accept that not all ROWs need to survive if they have been made redundant by other ways. Allow land users the right to request permanent diversions to match current land usage, I. E. Divert around the edge of fields rather than diagonally across the middle.

Also and easier, would be to lobby all our MPs rigorously and frequently, raise petitions to Parliament to gice the rest of the UK the tried and tested system in use in Scotland.

By the way, did you leave your leasehold farm of your own free will or was the lease not renewed during that era when farms were amalgamated into more commercially sized operations.
Too little, too late, too bad......

Mel

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Re: An interesting read?
« Reply #21 on: 16:08:19, 21/11/20 »
Keep going BWW, ...  Don't let the naysayers grind you down.


This ^^^
 
BWW, I too hope the recent flurry of victimisation towards you won’t put you off writing about “your chosen subject”.
 
I find your posts interesting and enjoy reading them although I rarely comment (shorter paragraphs would make them easier to read though!).
 
Understanding History helps in dealing with today's issues or so I am told  :-\


Indeed.  We shouldn’t lose sight of the history of how we arrived at where we are today, although, the phrase “If you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always got” springs to mind, sooooo….


....to lobby all our MPs rigorously and frequently, raise petitions to Parliament to gice the rest of the UK the tried and tested system in use in Scotland.


… moving forward, in my opinion, this ^^^ is where time, money and passion would be better spent rather than the 2026 definitive map update.
 
Andies – I read your link but got side-tracked by the horsey element of it  :-[
 

ninthace

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Re: An interesting read?
« Reply #22 on: 16:15:26, 21/11/20 »
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Bigfoot_Mike

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Re: An interesting read?
« Reply #23 on: 16:59:09, 21/11/20 »
What victimisation Mel?
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/victimize
No victimisation, ninthace. It is possible for there to be a range of views on a subject. If someone posts an opinion on a forum, they should expect some challenges.

ninthace

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Re: An interesting read?
« Reply #24 on: 17:15:31, 21/11/20 »
No victimisation, ninthace. It is possible for there to be a range of views on a subject. If someone posts an opinion on a forum, they should expect some challenges.
I absolutely agree.  A forum in which everyone agrees with everyone else is just an echo chamber and is pretty pointless.  It becomes no more than a self licking lollipop.  That said there should be standards of debate.  Mel referred to a "recent flurry of victimisation" towards BWW.  This is an ugly term and certainly one I would object to.  I was trying to clarify whom she was accusing of what?
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Mel

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Re: An interesting read?
« Reply #25 on: 18:14:11, 21/11/20 »
Yes, challenges, discussion, debate on WHAT is written/being discussed is exactly what the forum is about. 
 
There have been a few posters recently who have singled out BWW and ridiculed HIM for being passionate about his chosen subject. Ie. it just got personal TO HIM. Luckily most of those posts seem to have been removed now.
 
If it’s anything other than a one-off or obvious banter then I see that as victimisation.
 
I’m purposely not naming names as this might also be seen as victimisation.
 
(capitals for clarification, not shouting)
 
So I have said what I said.  Clarified what I meant.  I am conscious this has nothing to do with the original post (apologies Andies).  So that’s me out.
 

barewirewalker

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Re: An interesting read?
« Reply #26 on: 19:18:50, 21/11/20 »
No victimization felt, in fact to come under the scrutiny of the resident cynic is an honour. It makes me realise that I will have to try harder to explain the the cause and effect of many of the inadequacies of the access to our countryside, it is just the root cause lies in the past and it is the real cause of the OP's topic.
Jimbob reminds us of the Scottish answer, this is unlikely to come about in England and might just happen Wales. A countrywide outrage at the 'Corruption of the Definitive Map' and national vilification of the lobby group, who could admit their former members were responsible might just swing it. I don't have to be that old to remember my grandfather, who had been chairman of the counties War Ag. telling me why Churchill chose the NFU to ensure that the nation was fed during the War years and not the owners of land, whose organization was formed in 1911, plenty of time to prepare to screw up the 1949 Act  ;D . If I give the reasons he told me I think I will really bring the roof down on my head.

Shame no one picked up on my reference to the Deputy President of the NFU.


Is there an English alternative the Scottish land Reform Act? I believe there is, it is complicated, but sadly I do not seem to get the basis of understanding over to help bring the articulation of this complexity together. I strive to that end. The creation of an intellectual wedge between the producers of our food and the owners of land would be the primary strategy and it needs a realization that those lostways discovered by the Ramblers could be valuable and their loss was a political crime. There is content in the OP's topic matter to support that.

The horsey bit is understandable the BHS has invested heavily in training some of their members in the subject of lostways, perhaps that is why the content is a bit high brow.

I am tempted to write to the features editor of the British Farmer and Grower and point out that I feel discriminated against to lumped together with suspect thieves if I were to walk across his land. Just as I was generalized into a group with child molesters, when I used a footpath near a CLA official's residence. Why should he feel more at risk being 400 yards away from a supposed risk that I am 25 feet from. But at the moment my suspicions are that any such letter would be binned, because there is not enough common cause to create the resonance of alarm in that editor's hard drive.

Health warning to those with an apoplectic disposition; perhaps this post should not be read  ;) . Sorry Mel have missed a particularly juicy post of character assassination.

BWW
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barewirewalker

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Re: An interesting read?
« Reply #27 on: 11:45:53, 23/11/20 »
Still in the process of digesting the content, perhaps some of the negative comment has come from the link, which does not take you direct too From a Wild Frontier to the Promised Land? –discovering Suffolk paths by John Andrews.

It is a good read and thought provoking; Is there a subtle irony in the connection between the Landowners' persistent denigration of access as a leisure time pursuit and the occupation of this part of our countryside by a family that has made it's fortune from one of leisure times major props? And walking is the best antidote for the causes of excess of their product.

Quote
There was one huge `black hole’ across the County boundary, having an area of about 80 square miles, where not a single right of way was to be seen.  Was it entirely coincidental that the land in this area was owned by only a handful of people?
I see the black hole is now lessened, but these Exclusion Zones do have consequence, as I tried to demonstrate 5 years ago. These were perhaps clearer, as the landmarks were used by the medieval drovers bringing cattle out of Wales, whereas the modern consequence is the blocking of a way into Wales from the heartland of the Midlands and cost is the loss of this route, in the manner it could have developed under today's usage.
This has some familiarity with me;
Quote
His comments took the form of a frank acknowledgement of the way in which his father and those of the same   generation had adopted a practice of deliberately making life unpleasant for us Ramblers by keeping watch and telephoning their friends whenever we were seen heading in the direction of their land -so that the opportunity for a ‘bit of fun’ should not be missed. The writer made it quite clear that he was ashamed of this history and    profoundly hoped that this was a thing of the past.
Following verbal abuse received from a farmer on a right of way, a Right of Way Officer asked me the age of the abuser, his reason was profiling those anti-access occupiers. In this area I was told it was the younger farmers most hostile. It was coincidental with CLA's anti 'Open Access' campaign.




BWW
Their Land is in Our Country.

Andies

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Re: An interesting read?
« Reply #28 on: 16:45:34, 23/11/20 »
Yes BWW I should have been more specific with the link, albeit there is of course much of interest thereon as well.
I thought you in particular would find John's story very interesting. He is a very interesting man to talk to and has given me some advice over the last few years. I have also done a bit of leg work on the ground as sadly he now resides in Scotland. I suspect few if any have done as much as him to right the wrongs of the past.
The black holes are very much the domain of the large estates of which there are a number in these parts. Whilst much has changed thanks to John's efforts with some routes on the ground the old customs persist should you dare to walk them .We found this out last year on the Euston Estate when we came upon a shooting party beside a bridleway. The Code of Good Shooting Practice seemed to have escaped their attention or probably knowledge. I appraised some of my betters thereon after we had been shot over whilst on the bridleway for the second time in quick succession. I suspect I wasted my breath but a few choice words pertaining to their ignorance certainly made me feel somewhat better in an otherwise rather frightening situation.
We were thereafter shadowed by a gamekeeper until suitably removed to a public road. I was minded to pursue matters with the law but I doubt I would have achieved anything  :-\

barewirewalker

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Re: An interesting read?
« Reply #29 on: 11:42:00, 26/11/20 »
The 80 squ.mile black hole shown by Andrews in the blog an incredible indictment of the system of creating the Definitive Map and sadly the lack of interest in this bit of history is indicative of the acceptance of the status quo. I know it has been mitigated by the creation of Rights of Way since 1986 but this probable does not go far enough, if there was a deeper understanding of how these areas affect the access map and the benefits that they can have on the wider community.
The Mansell Lacy Black Hole in Herefordshire is a mere 11 squ.miles and Hodnet Black Hole a little less, yet if you give them critical scrutiny there are reasons why they lessen the quality of leisure walking in those parts of the country that extend well beyond their boundaries. I have tried to explore these but it is difficult when it is a subject that is not supported by editorial in the publications that sell the gear so many are keen to discuss.

I used the term black hole to try to explain a phenomena I recognized as Exclusion Zones. Airfields and Military Establishments are understandable. But many Black Holes exist on our Maps today by Rights of Way not being re-established when the Exclusion Zone is not longer required by the military and that area been returned to agricultural use. Some of these areas such as the Central Ammunition Dump, Nescliffe, Shropshire fall well short of the areas taken up by these massive black holes yet they do have such a significant impact on the access network to render a route into Wales, which was probably once a cattle drover's route, invisible to those seeking linear routes from the Midlands into Wales.

Shooting is a far less important function than landing aeroplanes, and I would not wish to stop it, yet the change from many keepers and under keepers having to nurture a wild birds that are very poor mothers has been replaced by modern bird rearing techniques. To see vast areas of countryside being excluded from adding to the network that serves a pastime that has been shown to outgrow all field sports by a factor of 10 in earning power,  in less years, seems illogical.

I don't know if I am alone in noticing these things, but the simple technique of circling a black hole on a map with RoWs,  then opening up a smaller scale map with the area of exclusion on it, shows how areas of Active Countryside are blocked from being part of a route to a destination or feature that should be playing a more active part in route planning.

Although some the frightening descriptions of intimidation are long past, it is one of the fears I have if the criminalization of trespass comes into law however remotely, Andies' own experience shows that the attitudes are still there.
BWW
Their Land is in Our Country.