Author Topic: Suffolk Quiz  (Read 2359 times)

Andies

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Suffolk Quiz
« on: 15:26:03, 04/12/20 »
Thinking about Suffolk's rights of way, some questions:

1. What is about 3,563 miles in length?
2. What is about 1,918 miles in length?
3. What happened just six times in 2020 and three times in 2019?
4. What needs to happen by 1 January 2026?

Any answers? (Sorry no prizes just a smug satisfied feeling to the first correct response  :D )
« Last Edit: 15:29:20, 04/12/20 by Andies »

rural roamer

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Re: Suffolk Quiz
« Reply #1 on: 17:13:43, 04/12/20 »
1) Well I know there’s over 3500 miles of PROW’s in Suffolk so I’ll say the total length of all PROW’s
2) The length of lostways in Suffolk
3) The number of times footpaths were reinstated
4) The date by which lostways have to be registered


I guessed the last three  ;D

Andies

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Re: Suffolk Quiz
« Reply #2 on: 11:40:41, 06/12/20 »
Well done rural roamer almost exactly the answers I was looking for  O0
You of course have the advantage or disadvantage depending on how you look at it of being a fellow resident of Suffolk, and being familiar I suspect with some of the issues we face.
Questions 1 & 2 you were spot on. Question 3 the figures of 6 in 2020 and 3 in 2019 were actually the number of applications for definitive map modification orders. That is applications not actual ROW added, so in practice they might not be successful  :-\
And finally question 4 you are right this is as it stands the cut off date for getting historic lost way added to the definitive map, but the answer to my mind is we need a miracle to achieve this.
My reasoning is that if the Ramblers lost way project gives us an estimate of the numbers involved, and say the average right of way is half a mile long (a quick guesstimate on my part) then there could be upwards of 3,800 applications that are needed by 2026. Given that Suffolk's right of ways department has only had nine applications in the past two years, and that most of them are yet to be considered, how on earth can the system deal with the potential number of applications that would be needed  :-X
The reality is of course that they won't be that many made because the system is structured in a way that makes it very difficult to make the claim successful, and those who understand this won't put the claims in as it would be a waste of time and effort.
The result is that these routes are lost for ever. The corruption of the past seventy years is completed. Hopefully more will eventually wake up to what is happening but I fear interest is minimal in the general public, and those who should represent us are all to often influenced by the other view or worse still are the other side  :(

rural roamer

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Re: Suffolk Quiz
« Reply #3 on: 22:11:02, 06/12/20 »
Not sure where you are in Suffolk Andies, but this article has just been published in the local paper
https://www.ipswichstar.co.uk/news/suffolk-ramblers-working-to-map-local-paths-1-6953059



Andies

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Re: Suffolk Quiz
« Reply #4 on: 15:42:43, 07/12/20 »
I'm in the West rural roamer so hadn't seen the article. It sums the situation up very well, but the devil is in the detail!
John Andrews has given me some very welcome assistance in recent years on a few things, and indeed on a long running project I am still working on at present. Hopefully this will come to something but as he said to me: "I warn you it may end in nothing but frustration".
This is of course the big problem that it is very difficult under the current system to get these routes onto the definitive map. Very often the evidence just isn't there, and after 50 years of work John has previously said in the Suffolk Ramblers newsletter, that he doesn't think there are many more routes to be gained by the historical evidence approach. Equally because of what has happened over the past seventy years many routes don't present with user evidence either, as sadly the old users thereof are long gone.
That is why I think the whole approach needs a change if there is any chance of realistically getting these lost ways onto the definitive map, but the Ramblers don't appear to be pushing for that, but rather accepting the current system. That's where I differ in my thinking, and why I posted this little quiz, hoping others might see the flawed thinking given the number of claims that would be needed to achieve this against what has been the recent level of claimed modification orders. I think the numbers speak for themselves but I seem to be something of a lone voice thereon  :(

barewirewalker

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Re: Suffolk Quiz
« Reply #5 on: 11:47:55, 08/12/20 »
Not much I can help with from Suffolk. though there is some recognition that lostways exist in My county of Shropshire. It can be seen here; https://shropshire.gov.uk/committee-services/documents/s16199/ROWIP%20Network%20Assessment%202017%20Amended.pdf
Is this a one off approach? Or is it a proforma document used by all councils, who have at least recognised there are such things as Lostways. The progression of understanding goes as far as an apendage; https://www.shropshire.gov.uk/media/10847/appendix-2-network-assessment-2017.pdfhttps://www.shropshire.gov.uk/media/10847/appendix-2-network-assessment-2017.pdf
But is does not reach any imaginative progression beyond the providing the graph on  page 3 linking amount of access to population density. This holds the key for speculating the type of development that should link the needs of local walking to long distance walking. For all the rights of way in Shropshire it still has a distinct absence of good X county ways in relation to the terrain it has to offer.

Is there is anything that helps to compare a your counties approach to this? Even with the chunk taken out by the Telford Corporation in the 1960's it is still the largest landlocked area, and could provide some excellent corridors of countryside for crossing, yet which ever direction you choose they are flawed, by assets not being made available by occupiers, who choose to ignore opportunities under the direction of their professional body.
BWW
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BuzyG

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Re: Suffolk Quiz
« Reply #6 on: 15:24:19, 08/12/20 »
The result is that these routes are lost for ever. The corruption of the past seventy years is completed. Hopefully more will eventually wake up to what is happening but I fear interest is minimal in the general public, and those who should represent us are all to often influenced by the other view or worse still are the other side  :(


To play Devils advocate for a moment.   The vast majority of people never knew these paths existed and will not care the least bit that they are lost, never to be travelled again by the general public. They have other things to do with their modern lives than walk old forgotten routes, when there are modern routes they can drive along and get there more quickly and efficiently.  Loosing these paths forever is, alas, not going to impact their lives very much at all. It will be a sad day for a pretty small minority of us truth be told.   :(

barewirewalker

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Re: Suffolk Quiz
« Reply #7 on: 16:04:28, 08/12/20 »
An example in my county on how some short lengths of lost way can open up a countryside corridor of many miles. Posted 14 months ago.
Evil Prevails When Good Men Fail To Act.
BWW
Their Land is in Our Country.

Andies

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Re: Suffolk Quiz
« Reply #8 on: 16:06:16, 08/12/20 »
Is there is anything that helps to compare a your counties approach to this?
I cannot recall seeing anything like this for Suffolk but that doesn't mean it's not out there. The Suffolk ROWIP follows a very politically correct route and certainly doesn't offer the type of starting premise that your first link does for Shropshire. I suspect Shropshire benefited from being one of the five pilot counties for the Natural England project. That said I thought the evidence gained from the five pilots was that it indicated that the problem of lost ways was so significant that the project was abandoned because there was insufficient resources to pursue it?
Suffolk CC did undertake a review of the definitive map and potential lost ways in 1979 but following a change of government the review couldn't be completed and consequently was abandoned.
BWW it may just be me but your other links gave error messages so I couldn't look at them as well.

To play Devils advocate for a moment.   The vast majority of people never knew these paths existed and will not care the least bit that they are lost, never to be travelled again by the general public. They have other things to do with their modern lives than walk old forgotten routes, when there are modern routes they can drive along and get there more quickly and efficiently.  Loosing these paths forever is, alas, not going to impact their lives very much at all. It will be a sad day for a pretty small minority of us truth be told.   :(
I wouldn't disagree with what you say but I have found that when you actually explain to people what has happened with the corruption of the definitive map people do become more interested. If only enough could be sufficiently motivated I really think progress could be made, and that is why I keep banging on about it  :D [size=78%] [/size]

barewirewalker

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Re: Suffolk Quiz
« Reply #9 on: 12:21:43, 10/12/20 »
An interesting passage in the text of the Shropshire document on lostways and improvements about anomalies in the Definitive Map.

Quote
The only way to resolve these issues is to research how they came to be [/font]recorded and if sufficient evidence is discovered, p[/font]ublish legal orders to alter [/font]the definitive map.[/font]
[/size][/font]

This is interesting because the writer is the Mapping and Enforcement Team Leader and is an admission that the compilers of the DM got it wrong. From a recent conversation with a member of the SGOLG formerly LAF, I learnt that there was little if no rights of way issues included in the agenda despite the Rambler's recent survey. The chair of this forum is a landowner placement, so no discussion leads to no constructive ideas being formulated. Yet their is a sign that a member of the bureaucracy has managed to insert a fulcrum into a document that is part of policy formulation, the trouble is the Rambler members have not placed a lever over this fulcum.

Suffolk may be on the opposite side of the country to Shropshire, but Frinton-on-Sea to Portmadoc may well appeal to someone, I have read some more way surrealistic routes on this forum over the years.

This same writer refers to progress coming from Agricultural support, yet it is Landowner opposition that is the real cause of no improvement. As a good public servant, open criticism would be impossible, yet it was a person in a similar job 20 years ago, who first told me of the Corruption of the DM, it is up to all to realize that these public servants need support, by bring the true culprits out into the open.
Keep it up Andies


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« Last Edit: 13:49:00, 10/12/20 by barewirewalker »
BWW
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Andies

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Re: Suffolk Quiz
« Reply #10 on: 14:28:00, 10/12/20 »
Thanks BWW I will certainly keep trying to awaken interest in the subject, whether people like it or not.
It is probably not surprising given our similar views that the words you quoted above also jumped out at me when I read the Shropshire document. As you say they hint at another way forward much as I frequently promote. A proper understanding of how we arrived at the current situation should frame the direction going forward.
Unfortunately despite the overwhelming evidence of seventy years of corruption of the definitive map, the answer seems to be, according to the Ramblers, to carry on with that system until 2026.
I would hope for something different but that doesn't seem to attract much support  :-\


Bigfoot_Mike

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Re: Suffolk Quiz
« Reply #11 on: 14:35:53, 10/12/20 »
Andies and BWW, have you tried raising a petition about corruption of the map on the government website? If you get enough people signing up, it could be debated in parliament.

Andies

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Re: Suffolk Quiz
« Reply #12 on: 15:24:53, 10/12/20 »
Andies and BWW, have you tried raising a petition about corruption of the map on the government website? If you get enough people signing up, it could be debated in parliament.
It's an idea I hadn't thought of Mike, although I wonder how effective such petitions are in reality?
It might raise some awareness of the issue amongst those unfamiliar with the problem, but without interested parties then taking this forward in parliament is there any hope of change?
I would be very sceptical of gaining any support from my local MP given her background, or indeed the current government  :-\
My great frustration is that organisations such as the Ramblers, who you would expect to be at the forefront of the debate seem reluctant to pursue things in a way other than the current system. They have the data from their lost ways survey but rather than calling out why this happened, just want to fundraise on the back of it, and then proceed using the same corrupted system.
It makes little sense to me but then as Mrs A says I'm not like other people  :D

barewirewalker

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Re: Suffolk Quiz
« Reply #13 on: 16:36:04, 10/12/20 »
Andies and BWW, have you tried raising a petition about corruption of the map on the government website? If you get enough people signing up, it could be debated in parliament.
Some more work would be needed in bringing awareness to the rank and file of walkers to make it effective. The lack of editorial on the subject in general is very disappointing, the popular press and media would need to wake up to the good stories that are there to be sourced. No one used the term "Corruption of the definitive map" to me, even though it was a rights of way officer who told me about the causes and consequences inherent in the flaws, anomalies and black holes. After 15 years of using this term much to the annoyance of other forum members, it is just starting to be used by others.

Just for the record I ran a topic called "the Corruption of the Definitive Map" on the Ramblers old forum before coming here. I was curious if this rather obvious judgmental term had been used before. No takers then and few supporters now. My inside knowledge was a land agent, who lived in a grace and favour house on the Berwick Estate a few fields away from the farm I grew up on. Of course, then that knowledge meant little to me, 60 + years later a lot of memories of local gossip and characters start to fall in place.

There are other C's that combine to make intriguing stories about this Corruption (1), starting with Cause (2), leads to Consequence (3), which has a Cost (4), in turn should generate Criticism (5) and then Condemnation (6) that leads to the door of the CLA, who think it is common sense to limit the amount of access, even reduce it. At the same time trying to bury the evidence of the corruption.

When programs like Countryfile start to refer to the Corruption of The Definitive Map, then would be the time for a petition because our MP's could not ignore it.
Perhaps nearer to 2026, when the press will be looking for column inches on the subject, so perhaps now is the time for a few more walkers to start gossiping about this iniquitous legacy with further facts and examples.

I for one would be eager to read them.
« Last Edit: 16:42:44, 10/12/20 by barewirewalker »
BWW
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Bigfoot_Mike

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Re: Suffolk Quiz
« Reply #14 on: 17:37:08, 10/12/20 »
I think you need a snappier title than Corruption of the Definitive Map, as that means nothing to most people. How about starting one on open access or saving lost footpaths for the public (or our grandchildren)? You need something that will attract interest and attention. Sell the sizzle and not the sausage.