Author Topic: Suffolk Quiz  (Read 2666 times)

barewirewalker

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Re: Suffolk Quiz
« Reply #30 on: 11:34:16, 12/12/20 »
And surely a way forward must be improved routes and areas to walk it. At the risk of offending, how many walkers can really size up surrounding terrain and speak a language that promotes the improvement of ways? We have all been following rights of way for so long that we cannot really evaluate the properties in the countryside, which improve continuity of way and quality of way.

PS, perhaps I should add safety.
BWW
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shortwalker

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Re: Suffolk Quiz
« Reply #31 on: 11:39:09, 12/12/20 »

At the risk of repetition, there are two powerful lobby groups supporting the views of those occupiers of our countryside, who feel they need to control access. One lobbies for property rights and the other for the production of food. The latter needs our support because we are their customers. Andies looks for a way forward, I think that there several ways forward and the ideas that fuel them are interlinked.


Too often walkers fail to differentiate between the farmer and the landowner, before we can get to clear and concise focus, there is a need to understand this difference. Perhaps my efforts to draw attention to this difference has been interpreted as slagging off landowners.


I still maintain that interpretation of the 2012 CLA document titled common sense needs more attention by those, who wish to appease the cause of our difficulties and cannot see the link between 1950's Ancient History  ::) , with a current if 8 year old policy.


The reason you and me will never agree BWW, is your assertion (my bold and underlined) that the current landowners are occupiers of our countryside.


You talk about seeing the links in history, at what point in history did the "common man" own the country? When in our history have the "common man been able to walk anywhere they wanted too?


If you have read my earlier post you would see that I perhaps more than most on here can trace my history back to a time when my family lost their land to a landowner (squire) so on the face of it I have more reason than most to despise landowners. But I don't, I accept that things move on and constantly carping on about some perceived utopian past, dose not move us forward.   






Let your soul and spirit fly Into the mystic.

Van Morrison

shortwalker

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Re: Suffolk Quiz
« Reply #32 on: 11:44:48, 12/12/20 »
And surely a way forward must be improved routes and areas to walk it. At the risk of offending, how many walkers can really size up surrounding terrain and speak a language that promotes the improvement of ways? We have all been following rights of way for so long that we cannot really evaluate the properties in the countryside, which improve continuity of way and quality of way.

PS, perhaps I should add safety.


The other argument could be that a lot of people who walk in the country really don't care that much about historical footpaths, they are happy to use the footpaths we currently have. They neither have the time or inclination to try and look for some possible ROW our forefathers used.

Let your soul and spirit fly Into the mystic.

Van Morrison

barewirewalker

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Re: Suffolk Quiz
« Reply #33 on: 11:51:08, 12/12/20 »

The other argument could be that a lot of people who walk in the country really don't care that much about historical footpaths, they are happy to use the footpaths we currently have. They neither have the time or inclination to try and look for some possible ROW our forefathers used.
That of course is the interpretation the writing in the landowner press hammers out. Having spent some hours comparing old with new maps, it reads more like an old jigsaw with lost pieces, which have been misplaced.
BWW
Their Land is in Our Country.

shortwalker

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Re: Suffolk Quiz
« Reply #34 on: 12:14:11, 12/12/20 »
That of course is the interpretation the writing in the landowner press hammers out. Having spent some hours comparing old with new maps, it reads more like an old jigsaw with lost pieces, which have been misplaced.


You just can't help yourself can you. Any time I say something you don't like the stock answer is it what the landowners want us to do/believe.


Has it ever occurred to you that people are capable of independent thought? That people can hold views that are different to yours that doesn't immediately mean they are some kind of landowner lackey.
Let your soul and spirit fly Into the mystic.

Van Morrison

barewirewalker

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Re: Suffolk Quiz
« Reply #35 on: 13:03:02, 12/12/20 »
I've read the maps, walked the routes and talked to the landowners, who say "Not in my lifetime". Search back through my posts, if you like, sadly photo bucket wiped out the maps.


There is a private bridge over the River Dee, near the Welsh border, a mini version of the Menai Bridge, probably unsafe now, in the possession of an estate that looked pretty impoverished, a decade or so ago. There was money sloshing around in EEC funds at the time, ripe for this sort of use. The potential to see that a corridor of pure countryside of high quality of way between the end of the Monsal Trail and Anglesea was lost in just the sort of point-scoring you are accusing me of.

How did I spot it; I noticed how land occupation by Lord Newborough impaired the ways of the off Moel Fferna at the Rug Estate. It was a lovely trespass, Mrs BWW was transfixed by the view from the middle of the bridge, I nearly had to carry her over in order not to be caught. Even spoke to the owners of the Estate, not that they knew the extent of our invasion of their property, we had carried out. The sad thing was the owner now dead, had been awarded a Military Cross for a heroic defence of a bridge in the Korean War.


Think; there could be a lasting memorial on that bridge to a brave landowner if they were to welcome the ideas of sharing the countryside.
BWW
Their Land is in Our Country.

shortwalker

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Re: Suffolk Quiz
« Reply #36 on: 13:09:09, 12/12/20 »
I've read the maps, walked the routes and talked to the landowners, who say "Not in my lifetime". Search back through my posts, if you like, sadly photo bucket wiped out the maps.


There is a private bridge over the River Dee, near the Welsh border, a mini version of the Menai Bridge, probably unsafe now, in the possession of an estate that looked pretty impoverished, a decade or so ago. There was money sloshing around in EEC funds at the time, ripe for this sort of use. The potential to see that a corridor of pure countryside of high quality of way between the end of the Monsal Trail and Anglesea was lost in just the sort of point-scoring you are accusing me of.

How did I spot it; I noticed how land occupation by Lord Newborough impaired the ways of the off Moel Fferna at the Rug Estate. It was a lovely trespass, Mrs BWW was transfixed by the view from the middle of the bridge, I nearly had to carry her over in order not to be caught. Even spoke to the owners of the Estate, not that they knew the extent of our invasion of their property, we had carried out. The sad thing was the owner now dead, had been awarded a Military Cross for a heroic defence of a bridge in the Korean War.


Think; there could be a lasting memorial on that bridge to a brave landowner if they were to welcome the ideas of sharing the countryside.


Your point is?


Perhaps you could actually engage in debate. After all that is what this is all about.

Let your soul and spirit fly Into the mystic.

Van Morrison

barewirewalker

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Re: Suffolk Quiz
« Reply #37 on: 13:53:44, 12/12/20 »
Perhaps you could actually engage in debate. After all that is what this is all about.
Your point is?
I though that was just what I have been doing :-\ supporting the OP with a bit of like thinking.


The point of my last post; to start o show that there could be more to talk about. My experience on the forum I posted at the time was to be challenged by long term member, who claimed to be knowledgeable of that area, that I had got the wrong bridge and it had a right of way to it. In reality, the route is a no go, but both among like-minded people and officially I was never given the chance to get the idea of such a route as an example of how terrain, infrastructure and destinations could be seen as a learning curve.

Today it may still be a fantasy, but to discuss it in virtual reality might encourage others to look at parts and collect evidence that I no longer have the strength to go out and do.

It was the idea of walking all the Munros unhindered that was the keystone to Scotland getting their Land Reform Act.
« Last Edit: 14:22:40, 12/12/20 by barewirewalker »
BWW
Their Land is in Our Country.

Andies

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Re: Suffolk Quiz
« Reply #38 on: 14:14:14, 12/12/20 »
Sorry shortwalker but I am struggling to post a better direct link to the John Andrews story I have previously referred to. If you follow the link on the "an interesting read" thread you will see it on the pannageman blog on the craddocks website. It really is worth the effort and as I said I would be very interested to hear your take on it ;)
« Last Edit: 14:24:22, 12/12/20 by Andies »

shortwalker

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Re: Suffolk Quiz
« Reply #39 on: 22:29:24, 12/12/20 »
Sorry shortwalker but I am struggling to post a better direct link to the John Andrews story I have previously referred to. If you follow the link on the "an interesting read" thread you will see it on the pannageman blog on the craddocks website. It really is worth the effort and as I said I would be very interested to hear your take on it ;)


I did read through it, but it didn't really change my mind over anything. Their were/are some questionable means used to block/move ROW. I had to laugh at that Lubbit Parish council didn't really see the need/want many ROW in it's area. I look at our local Parish Council and can't help but think they would likely come to the same conclusion. (If left to their own devices) 


It certainly demonstrates how difficult it is likely to be to get many of the "lostways" reopened. There is a bit of me that feels why bother, perhaps our energy would be better spent getting our current ROW better maintained and accessible.


I personally would put some effort into something like Slow Ways.
Let your soul and spirit fly Into the mystic.

Van Morrison

Andies

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Re: Suffolk Quiz
« Reply #40 on: 11:10:37, 13/12/20 »

I did read through it, but it didn't really change my mind over anything. Their were/are some questionable means used to block/move ROW. I had to laugh at that Lubbit Parish council didn't really see the need/want many ROW in it's area. I look at our local Parish Council and can't help but think they would likely come to the same conclusion. (If left to their own devices) 
To be honest even I find much on this site somewhat technical for me. I still remain a little surprised that you found nothing on the specific pannageman blog entry about John Andrews (19 April 2019) and the link therein to his story:"From a Wild Frontier to the Promised Land? - discovering Suffolk paths" worthy of comment, especially given your Suffolk connections? I'm not trying to goad you shortwalker by banging on about this but for me it just seemed to say it all, and whilst I am very aware that our thinking differs somewhat I thought it would have deserved some direct comment, as you are one of the few on the forum (their choice obviously, I'm not having a go folks) who seem willing to at least challenge the views of BWW, myself and clearly John Andrews?
« Last Edit: 14:17:19, 13/12/20 by Andies »

Bigfoot_Mike

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Re: Suffolk Quiz
« Reply #41 on: 13:03:11, 13/12/20 »

Too often walkers fail to differentiate between the farmer and the landowner, before we can get to clear and concise focus, there is a need to understand this difference. Perhaps my efforts to draw attention to this difference has been interpreted as slagging off landowners.


Most walkers donít care about the difference. We are interested in legally gaining access to the countryside. There are many more members of the public than there are of the CLA and NFU. A concise, cogently argued case might enthuse the larger group to push for greater access, similar to what we have in Scotland. Dwelling on the past and the supposed bad guys will change nothing in my opinion.

shortwalker

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Re: Suffolk Quiz
« Reply #42 on: 22:57:12, 13/12/20 »
To be honest even I find much on this site somewhat technical for me. I still remain a little surprised that you found nothing on the specific pannageman blog entry about John Andrews (19 April 2019) and the link therein to his story:"From a Wild Frontier to the Promised Land? - discovering Suffolk paths" worthy of comment, especially given your Suffolk connections? I'm not trying to goad you shortwalker by banging on about this but for me it just seemed to say it all, and whilst I am very aware that our thinking differs somewhat I thought it would have deserved some direct comment, as you are one of the few on the forum (their choice obviously, I'm not having a go folks) who seem willing to at least challenge the views of BWW, myself and clearly John Andrews?


I hadn't even seen the From a wild frontier to promised land.


I have now had a look at it and apart from mentioning some places I know, doesn't really change my thinking. (nor does it really say anything different from the other pieces I read)


For future reference this is the link:  https://pannageman.craddocks.co.uk/2019/04/10/from-a-wild-frontier-to-the-promised-land-51/


Despite what some on here think of me, I am well aware of the underhand/illegal things that are done concerning restricting/closing ROW9(s). I just have a different take on how to resolve it.
Let your soul and spirit fly Into the mystic.

Van Morrison

Andies

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Re: Suffolk Quiz
« Reply #43 on: 11:11:31, 14/12/20 »

I hadn't even seen the From a wild frontier to promised land.


I have now had a look at it and apart from mentioning some places I know, doesn't really change my thinking. (nor does it really say anything different from the other pieces I read)


For future reference this is the link:  https://pannageman.craddocks.co.uk/2019/04/10/from-a-wild-frontier-to-the-promised-land-51/


Despite what some on here think of me, I am well aware of the underhand/illegal things that are done concerning restricting/closing ROW9(s). I just have a different take on how to resolve it.

Glad you have read it, and thanks for putting the link in, for some unknown reason I just couldn't get it to accept the link!

I wouldn't worry about what anyone on here does or doesn't think of you. I put my view across, (probably to the point of getting on peoples nerves), and I think everyone is entitled to do so, otherwise what's the point of the forum? The only thing that does irritate me is when people are rude, there is no need for it. Keep posting and putting your views across I say  O0

barewirewalker

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Re: Suffolk Quiz
« Reply #44 on: 11:57:34, 14/12/20 »

 Dwelling on the past and the supposed bad guys will change nothing in my opinion.
I am struggling to find an area of study that has not relied on history, ancient or contemporary, for guidance and evidence. Shortwalker urges me to join in the debate, yet when I point to an example that my further debate, I am accused of 'slagging off landowners'.

Rather than campaign, I would together with others dig deeper into the reasoning that might assist those, who campaign. Yet, when I find an example that seems to offer some practical opportunity to further debate, the implied criticism of the occupier of the land gets thrown back.

Quote
Quote
In Humberts Commentaries (published by a firm of chartered surveyors), the Earl of March
and Kinrara, Who, with his father the 9th Duke of Richmond owns the 12,000-acre Goodwood Estate in West Sussex, had a tip for fellow
landowners:
We deliberately created a Country Park under the Countryside Act on 60 acres of poor-quality land on the top of the Downs. It is an open area
where people can park their cars, play games with their children, picnic and exercise their dogs. There is no charge for admission, but it gives
us the opportunity to say: ‘You can’t go there, but you can go to the Country Park'.
Just to get on the nerves of those, who still 'knuckle ye forhead' to lords etc, that clutter political scene with archaic notions.  :D

 A concise, cogently argued case might enthuse the larger group to push for greater access, similar to what we have in Scotland. Dwelling on the past
The political force that created Scotland's 2003 Land Reform Act was very much fueled by ancient history and some forgotten contemporary history was very much in evidence 15 years ago that played a part in modelling the improvements in access that led to the freedom of access enjoyed there.
Slow ways have been mentioned as a way forward, those Slow Ways that cannot be seen on a map are what landowners fear, they try to make little of them, by saying much the same as the Earl of March said in the above quote.

What have we gained from this topic, recognition of the 'Devonian Disease'? It is recognised in Suffolk and lesions caused by that infection can be seen in Shropshire. A Bit like calling a cancer 'Hodkinson's Lymphoma' something that has spread alot further than someone call Hodgkinson, yet history has left a name there that allows people to put a name to a wealth of understanding.
Don't fret Slowalker, I'll get accused of something and it will probably have nothing to do with the hidden meanings I would love for others to pick up.


 'From a wild frontier to promised land' there is a lot more to that title than meets the eye, the more I learn from the countryside I walk the more I realise sharing dreams can open up the promised land.



BWW
Their Land is in Our Country.