Author Topic: LANDRAGE; The good, the bad and the ugly.  (Read 2730 times)

barewirewalker

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LANDRAGE; The good, the bad and the ugly.
« on: 13:01:43, 24/03/21 »
I've experienced it, and so have others. Yet I have only just thought to put this name to it, is it a symptom of property elitism? I put the name 'Corruption of the Definitive Map' to a recognisable flaw in our maps over 10 years, it's cause was explained to me by a Rights of Way Officer, I have great respect for. Perhaps the reason I am more sensitive to its effects is based on being able to recognise the personalities involved. I was dragged along to an NFU branch meeting by my father at the age of 19, the Definitive Map legislation was being implemented, stuff I did not understand then perhaps influence my thinking 50 years later.


I have great sympathy with anyone, who has been subjected to outbursts of this, its root cause is an emotional feeling driven by well-publicised selfish policies. It is sad when a new member gets hounded out because the primary grievance gets caught up in the bric brac of politically correct one-liners. Had my wife experienced the verbal abuse that I received when I first experienced this phenomenon, we may have missed 20 years of happy walking.

Now I do not want to be drawn into the adjectives used by an emotional person, who probably went through a frightening experience but I do feel that a topic that had valuable content has been lost to side issues.

Many may think that landrage is the prerogative of the owner of land, actually a freeholder, but does this person or the collective of those people own the countryside. I have been subject to hostility by a property occupier(Mrs M) thinking she is supporting the interests of the "landowner" and this person frightened off a member of this forum from part of a walk he and his friend were trying to make between the Wash and Barmouth. They walked several miles of road rather than countryside that would have provided more scenic and historic content to their route than the narrow tarmacked channel between high hedges the nearby lanes had to offer.


I later met the "landowner" supported by the harridan, Mrs M rents her property off. He lied to me about making good the right of way through his crop of potatoes and I came away knowing that I had spoken with a small-minded, self-important prat whose last night whiskey consumption was still pouring out of his eyes.
BWW
Their Land is in Our Country.

jimbob

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Re: LANDRAGE; The good, the bad and the ugly.
« Reply #1 on: 17:27:05, 24/03/21 »
Aye, but as has been stated many, many times in this forum, it seems that a lot of us meet helpful, happy farmers farmers.  In my personal experience only too willing to let me know the better ways across their land to where I need to be, or pointing out difficulties ahead.  One warning me he had been hedge clipping (which was obvious) and that I would be better off accepting a lift in his nearby 4wd across the very long field rather than diverting and walking on what he described as the local Brands hatch back lane. He said the ROW which he had blocked would be clear before the end if the afternoon. Twice I've been invited in for a cuppa by farmers. There are many sides to human nature, helpfulness is the side I have most often encountered when out walking.
Too little, too late, too bad......

Andies

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Re: LANDRAGE; The good, the bad and the ugly.
« Reply #2 on: 17:51:37, 24/03/21 »
"Landrage " is I believe a largely but not exclusively hereditary blood condition experienced by landowners. It's cause is uncertain but possibly attributable to excessive inbreeding or more controversially lead shot poisoning.
It manifests in access denial based on misinformed interpretation of the past, and is often characterized by outbursts at walkers.
As with most conditions it has mutated somewhat from it's original form that was known to be based on an overwhelming sense of entitlement, albeit sometimes tempered by occasional acts of benevolence, to now be a far more unpleasant condition  known as the "CLA" variant.
There is no known cure although shock therapy in the form of mass trespass has been suggested in the past. :D
« Last Edit: 17:54:56, 24/03/21 by Andies »

richardh1905

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Re: LANDRAGE; The good, the bad and the ugly.
« Reply #3 on: 17:55:48, 24/03/21 »
In my area I know of one farmer who is actively hostile towards walkers, using Coronavirus as an excuse to block a well used footpath that passed his farm for several weeks. We also have a laird who welcomes walkers in some of his woodland, but discourages walkers in other woods, on some fallacious pretext. I have also come across signs in woods a few miles away warning people of Alarm Mines, which apparently discharge a blank shotgun cartridge if a tripwire is triggered. Nice.


But thankfully they are in a minority - the sheep farmer who farms one local hill gave me a cheery wave as I wandered across the fell, which is not access land, but is well used by locals.
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richardh1905

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Re: LANDRAGE; The good, the bad and the ugly.
« Reply #4 on: 17:56:47, 24/03/21 »
"Landrage " is I believe a largely but not exclusively hereditary blood condition experienced by landowners. It's cause is uncertain but possibly attributable to excessive inbreeding or more controversially lead shot poisoning.
It manifests in access denial based on misinformed interpretation of the past, and is often characterized by outbursts at walkers.
As with most conditions it has mutated somewhat from it's original form that was known to be based on an overwhelming sense of entitlement, albeit sometimes tempered by occasional acts of benevolence, to now be a far more unpleasant condition  known as the "CLA" variant.
There is no known cure although shock therapy in the form of mass trespass has been suggested in the past. :D


 ;D ;D


In some way I feel sorry for sufferers - they have become prisoners of their own land.
WildAboutWalking - Join me on my walks through the wilder parts of Britain

ninthace

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Re: LANDRAGE; The good, the bad and the ugly.
« Reply #5 on: 18:06:43, 24/03/21 »
Never met Landrage in many years of walking.  Nearest was a keeper who would not let me pass through a small enclave of private land in a sea of CROW land.  A planning error on my part, I had not noticed.  He was not cross but he was firm and made sure I left the way I came.  I felt aggrieved but he was in the right, even if I found his reasoning defective.  Otherwise I have either been ignored or welcomed - usually the latter.  Some occupants (1) of the land were genuinely interested in where I was going and were often glad for the interruption/company.
1.  I use the term occupant as I have no way of knowing if the person I meet is an owner, tenant or employee and I don't really care.
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shortwalker

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Re: LANDRAGE; The good, the bad and the ugly.
« Reply #6 on: 18:15:00, 24/03/21 »
Being officious is not only the domain of landowners, have come across plenty of officious types, in all walks of life. So your point is what, BWW?


One does have to question how you seem to encounter all these officious landowners when most of us have very little if any interaction with them.
Let your soul and spirit fly Into the mystic.

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ninthace

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Re: LANDRAGE; The good, the bad and the ugly.
« Reply #7 on: 18:16:11, 24/03/21 »

In my area I know of one farmer who is actively hostile towards walkers, using Coronavirus as an excuse to block a well used footpath that passed his farm for several weeks. We also have a laird who welcomes walkers in some of his woodland, but discourages walkers in other woods, on some fallacious pretext. I have also come across signs in woods a few miles away warning people of Alarm Mines, which apparently discharge a blank shotgun cartridge if a tripwire is triggered. Nice.
.....................................................
To balance that, near us is a wood which is popular in the surrounding villages, especially during the Bluebell season.  It already has two ROWs through it but the owner is making more paths through the wood, even adding bridges across the stream.
PW users crossing Gods Bridge may also like to know the the farm just to the E has also put in paths by the Greta so the river can be enjoyed.
 
Solvitur Ambulando

richardh1905

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Re: LANDRAGE; The good, the bad and the ugly.
« Reply #8 on: 18:29:17, 24/03/21 »
To balance that, near us is a wood which is popular in the surrounding villages, especially during the Bluebell season.  It already has two ROWs through it but the owner is making more paths through the wood, even adding bridges across the stream.
PW users crossing Gods Bridge may also like to know the the farm just to the E has also put in paths by the Greta so the river can be enjoyed.


Indeed - there are lots of more enlightened landowners out there.
WildAboutWalking - Join me on my walks through the wilder parts of Britain

barewirewalker

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Re: LANDRAGE; The good, the bad and the ugly.
« Reply #9 on: 23:50:18, 24/03/21 »
Landowners around Perridge are not very forthcoming with goodwill judging by the numbers of privacy signs in prime walking terrain, only 3mile west of the mainline railway in Exeter.
I have listened to landowners talk, I don't have to get into a confrontation, having chaired NFU meetings enough to read the signs and the evidence was clear enough when I had access to the landowners' web site through my brother-in-laws pass key. Until he realised being a member was just con.
Yes, there are a few good eggs, but they a precious few, most of the reasonable landowners I have met a relatively small owner-occupiers, who have diversified in the hospitality trade.

The record of the landowner members of the Shropshire LAF is abysmal, an iron age fort on the longest-serving member is a hill bagger's target yet, access to it would not be allowed to it in his lifetime (his words though to me sotto voce). He stopped a disused railway line being used for access that would have joined 2 market towns, claimed it was a waste of money yet, the money was being raised privately.

Between Wellington and Shrewsbury, there are several lostways that would join the two towns by a corridor of countryside, yet active CLA members actively repress access so that the way cannot be seen or understood.



Actually, if my posts over the years had been read there are many other examples of routes between transport hubs, over key infrastructure and to hidden features that would be valuable to our access network.

I know enough sympathetic farmers to know that they know that they are in a minority. If they open up controlled access limited to their holding only they will be given good press coverage, yet they will be actively discouraged from spreading it from neighbour to neighbour and it is continuity of way that is valuable. Individual farm walks have been shown to be a waste of time, look at the Defra permissive walks scheme.

As for the experience of running into landrage, perhaps I have learnt to control it. Not difficult to find when someone else tells me of it and I make a visit. When I spoke to the harridan Mrs Morris I cornered her in her own horsebox, she was as nice as pie, yet the farmer at the other end of the footpath she intimidates people into not using was in awe of her. 
 
« Last Edit: 23:53:21, 24/03/21 by barewirewalker »
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shortwalker

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Re: LANDRAGE; The good, the bad and the ugly.
« Reply #10 on: 00:11:53, 25/03/21 »

Actually, if my posts over the years had been read there are many other examples of routes between transport hubs, over key infrastructure and to hidden features that would be valuable to our access network.




If we could be bothered to have read all your posts they would all basically say the same thing. ;D
Let your soul and spirit fly Into the mystic.

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pauldawes

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Re: LANDRAGE; The good, the bad and the ugly.
« Reply #11 on: 02:55:10, 25/03/21 »

If we could be bothered to have read all your posts they would all basically say the same thing. ;D


Many would be on the same theme...that land could be better managed to facilitate wider and more enjoyable walking.


But thatís not to say they are all the same.


They arenít: BWW provides different examples and reasoning within that basic theme. And for me itís a really important theme, especially when we can all see the gains from better access rights (in Scotland) in part of our Isle.


I fully accept that most farmers/ landowners are fairly reasonable. But I also believe:-


That itís obvious that a sizeable minority take measures to make walking more difficult...constantly removing or damaging guidance signs, strategically placing manure heaps, failing to maintain paths, etc, etc


That we would all gain...if overall approach was that land access was a basic right, there to be enjoyed, and presumption was ďwalking encouraged except for those that cause damageĒ.


Do you really think overall UK walking laws are near perfect?
« Last Edit: 06:13:00, 25/03/21 by pauldawes »

ninthace

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Re: LANDRAGE; The good, the bad and the ugly.
« Reply #12 on: 07:49:01, 25/03/21 »

......................

Do you really think overall UK walking laws are near perfect?
Point of order, if by walking laws you mean access/right to roam legislation, is it not delegated to the respective National governments?


Also in your post, you complain about transgression of existing laws, which makes it an enforcement rather than a legislation issue.
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shortwalker

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Re: LANDRAGE; The good, the bad and the ugly.
« Reply #13 on: 08:25:35, 25/03/21 »

Many would be on the same theme...that land could be better managed to facilitate wider and more enjoyable walking.


But thatís not to say they are all the same.


They arenít: BWW provides different examples and reasoning within that basic theme. And for me itís a really important theme, especially when we can all see the gains from better access rights (in Scotland) in part of our Isle.


I fully accept that most farmers/ landowners are fairly reasonable. But I also believe:-


That itís obvious that a sizeable minority take measures to make walking more difficult...constantly removing or damaging guidance signs, strategically placing manure heaps, failing to maintain paths, etc, etc


That we would all gain...if overall approach was that land access was a basic right, there to be enjoyed, and presumption was ďwalking encouraged except for those that cause damageĒ.


Do you really think overall UK walking laws are near perfect?



My problem with BWW is virtually all his posts are derogatory towards landowners.


What surprises me is that he doesn't get called out about it more often.


He could quite easily express his views, without any reference to the alleged ownership of any land.


On your last point, actually, I do think the laws as they stand in the UK regarding access are about right. I do think though there should be more enforcement of those laws, so the damaging of signs, the failure to maintain paths, etc. would be pursued with more vigor. It wouldn't take many prosecutions for attitudes to change.



Let your soul and spirit fly Into the mystic.

Van Morrison

barewirewalker

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Re: LANDRAGE; The good, the bad and the ugly.
« Reply #14 on: 10:09:47, 25/03/21 »
I asked in my original post is landrage is a symptom of property elitism. The only lobby group that promotes the interests of land freehold has the word landowner in its title. Its stated aim is to have totally joined up membership from coast to coast across England.

When I was initially verbally abused, I did extensive lobbying with a number of organizations connected with land occupation and access. One particular Rights of Way Officer asked me the age of the individual, which was middle-aged, he was interested because he had noticed an increase in the younger generation being anti-access. This was about 15years ago.

This coincided with that lobby groups campaign against CRoW and the coastal path, I believe that the seeds of landrage originated in the campaign then.


I monitored the Vixen Tor debacle, I think this first started to widen my interest in the nature of terrain to its access value. Objectives and their approach are all part of building up the 'quality of way'. Such terms I have often used but with little response, when the individual occupiers of the countryside want to establish their territorial dominance over the better interests of an asset that has national economic importance I think it is worth trying to analyse cause and effect.

We have lost a recent member because of side issues, shortwalker's rather narrow-minded support for the landowner seems to be based on knee jerk reactions to single words rather than the context those words are worked into. Perhaps he is trying to drive me off, but it is not my intention to leave so easily.


The member we have just lost together with his post would have been another specific instance of landrage, there have been a number of others over the years I have posted here and 14 to 1 with shortwalker, and then some 5 years on the Rambler's Forum. The observation of that RoW officer has become more a warning than a fact. If public opinion was to drive a wedge of understanding between the farmer and the landowner, England would on the road to parity with Scotland, yet you will have to get that understanding directed at their political lobby groups. No lobby group exists without grassroots support.

For SW's ears only, I have been into the inner covens of landowner gatherings, surprising where wearing a suit and bowler hat at county shows with Chief Steward of Horses on it for 45 years will get you, they are a breed (selectively bred over many centuries, ref; Marion Shoard; This land is my land). Their true intentions are kept well hidden until they get their own way.




BWW
Their Land is in Our Country.