Author Topic: LANDRAGE; The good, the bad and the ugly.  (Read 2704 times)

pauldawes

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1525
Re: LANDRAGE; The good, the bad and the ugly.
« Reply #15 on: 10:12:12, 25/03/21 »
Point of order, if by walking laws you mean access/right to roam legislation, is it not delegated to the respective National governments?


Also in your post, you complain about transgression of existing laws, which makes it an enforcement rather than a legislation issue.


It’s both an enforcement and legislation issue. The present laws should be better enforced. (I agree wholeheartedly with Shortwalker on that.) But also the legislation itself...certainly in England..should be amended.


(And yes, agree with you that it’s devolved to national governments...I did after all say that I preferred the Scottish legislation in this area.)

richardh1905

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6864
Re: LANDRAGE; The good, the bad and the ugly.
« Reply #16 on: 10:56:13, 25/03/21 »
"Never underestimate the rapaciousness of the British landed classes" - Alexei Sayle (I think)

WildAboutWalking - Join me on my walks through the wilder parts of Britain

richardh1905

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6864
Re: LANDRAGE; The good, the bad and the ugly.
« Reply #17 on: 11:02:14, 25/03/21 »
This coincided with that lobby groups campaign against CRoW and the coastal path, I believe that the seeds of landrage originated in the campaign then.


Oh I have been bawled at by farmers well before then. Including once when I dared to stray off the righteous path in the middle of nowhere on the Rhyd Ddu route up Snowdon.
« Last Edit: 11:47:11, 25/03/21 by richardh1905 »
WildAboutWalking - Join me on my walks through the wilder parts of Britain

barewirewalker

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3663
Re: LANDRAGE; The good, the bad and the ugly.
« Reply #18 on: 11:29:54, 25/03/21 »
I agree landrage is a perennial plant already flourishing, just new seeds in a new generation.
BWW
Their Land is in Our Country.

barewirewalker

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3663
Re: LANDRAGE; The good, the bad and the ugly.
« Reply #19 on: 11:43:12, 25/03/21 »
"Landrage " is I believe a largely but not exclusively hereditary blood condition experienced by landowners. It's cause is uncertain but possibly attributable to excessive inbreeding or more controversially lead shot poisoning.
It manifests in access denial based on misinformed interpretation of the past, and is often characterized by outbursts at walkers.
As with most conditions it has mutated somewhat from it's original form that was known to be based on an overwhelming sense of entitlement, albeit sometimes tempered by occasional acts of benevolence, to now be a far more unpleasant condition  known as the "CLA" variant.
There is no known cure although shock therapy in the form of mass trespass has been suggested in the past. :D

Spot on but fail to mention the level of linebreeding that that fixed the gene, bit like Haemophilia in the Romanoffs. A cause that Marion Shoard in her book This land is Our Land and that was not a whimsical fantasy but a serious exposee of the loss of control over the land. This exposes perhaps needs to delve more into the need to share the countryside part of land asset further to the agricultural production asset.
« Last Edit: 12:20:17, 25/03/21 by barewirewalker »
BWW
Their Land is in Our Country.

Andies

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 579
Re: LANDRAGE; The good, the bad and the ugly.
« Reply #20 on: 11:49:10, 25/03/21 »

My problem with BWW is virtually all his posts are derogatory towards landowners.

What surprises me is that he doesn't get called out about it more often.

He could quite easily express his views, without any reference to the alleged ownership of any land.

On your last point, actually, I do think the laws as they stand in the UK regarding access are about right. I do think though there should be more enforcement of those laws, so the damaging of signs, the failure to maintain paths, etc. would be pursued with more vigor. It wouldn't take many prosecutions for attitudes to change.


As sure as night follows day shortwalker's comments on BWW's post are equally as predictable, but obviously no less relevant, or welcome. You earlier said BWW's posts were all the same, and yes there is often a common theme, but your own in response thereto are also always on a theme that sits very closely to the policies of the Country Landowners' Association, an organisation that almost always sits in direct opposition to the walking and access community. Hence some of us hereon find your views somewhat unusual. I am not saying you aren't entitled to give them but only that I certainly find your stance at odds IMO with the majority of walkers.

I also think in this case it is difficult for BWW to not make some reference to landowners given this is the essence of the original post and one that he instigated. If you do find his posts so predictable and it would appear that they often engender some minor "landrage" on your part that you might consider not reading them, and I think I am correct in saying that you can block particular people's posts, so you could also do that; but I'm sure you won't because just as I perversely enjoy reading the nonsense you often spout, deep down I think you look forward to BWW's posts ;)

Surprisingly I see a glimmer of hope in your last paragraph above. Perhaps after reading all of BWW's posts you will see the light and join us; and perhaps even stray from the righteous way :-\

ninthace

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7961
Re: LANDRAGE; The good, the bad and the ugly.
« Reply #21 on: 12:51:22, 25/03/21 »
Issues such obstructed paths and being denied rightful access rightfully raise my ire but the present and past ownership of land does not raise the same sense of anger.  The past is the past and is immutable.  Getting cross about it will change nothing.
Working for improved access is a laudable aim but I suspect we will make more progress by education  than by confrontation.  If we ever achieve similar access rights in the rest of the UK as they enjoy in Scotland then that will be a glorious day, though I for one would miss the frisson of a discrete trespass.

Of course, walk planning would the become a far more fraught affair.  The present ROW network shows me how I can at least expect to get from A to B and where I might find stiles, gates and bridges but how will we cope if we try to walk other routes?  Maps do not show the access points between fields or how to find the way across streams.

Given the way many of the public currently behave in the countryside, I am concerned there may be instances of damage where walkers try to make access where none presently exists on the pretext it is now their right.  This in turn could lead to a backlash and draconian legislation instigated by the land owners.  The legislation would have to drafted carefully to cover this.

In the interim, I think we can improve our current lot by not hesitating to report frequently rereport any abuses of our current network.  Squeaky wheels do occasionally get greased!  O0
Solvitur Ambulando

shortwalker

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 320
Re: LANDRAGE; The good, the bad and the ugly.
« Reply #22 on: 12:58:08, 25/03/21 »

We have lost a recent member because of side issues, shortwalker's rather narrow-minded support for the landowner seems to be based on knee jerk reactions to single words rather than the context those words are worked into. Perhaps he is trying to drive me off, but it is not my intention to leave so easily.



I have no "agenda" to drive you off this forum. It is just I see no reason why you should continually refer to landowners in such a derogatory way.  All your points could be made a lot more succinct if you didn't ramble on about landowners.


If your comments about losing a member because of what you see as a "side issue" relates to the size of some alleged landowner, then it is right they were called out over it. But for some reason members on this forum don't do the same to you with your derogatory comments, in fact, some seem to even encourage it.


Again just because I hold different views doesn't make me some sort of landowner "lovey"


Let your soul and spirit fly Into the mystic.

Van Morrison

pauldawes

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1525
Re: LANDRAGE; The good, the bad and the ugly.
« Reply #23 on: 13:02:44, 25/03/21 »


In the interim, I think we can improve our current lot by not hesitating to report frequently rereport any abuses of our current network.  Squeaky wheels do occasionally get greased!  O0


Yes, I think I’ll make an effort to do that in appropriate cases in next few years...the art of complaining is much easier in our computer age..and often there’s a numbers threshold to get some movement. (i.e...a complaint from one person might be shelved...but a steady stream from an assortment of people is much more likely to get results.)

Andies

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 579
Re: LANDRAGE; The good, the bad and the ugly.
« Reply #24 on: 14:26:13, 25/03/21 »
In the interim, I think we can improve our current lot by not hesitating to report frequently rereport any abuses of our current network.  Squeaky wheels do occasionally get greased!  O0
Yes, I think I’ll make an effort to do that in appropriate cases in next few years...the art of complaining is much easier in our computer age..and often there’s a numbers threshold to get some movement. (i.e...a complaint from one person might be shelved...but a steady stream from an assortment of people is much more likely to get results.)
That was the approach I adopted in Suffolk but despite some success in addressing issues I kept finding that many reports to the ROW Department, albeit acknowledged and being advised that they would be acted on, never were. Re-reporting a number of times didn't seem to make any difference, and some of the more difficult issues were side stepped. Consequently I took the issue up with the head of the Council's ROW Department, who suggested I made too many reports, although did concede that all my reports were valid ones ???
Over time I just stopped bothering to report most issues, as often I would return from a walk and have ten or more potential reports that could be made, which with the previous online reporting tool was something of an exercise. This was probably a reflection of the shocking state of Suffolk's ROW network and the underfunding of the ROW Department. The new system is much better and quicker, but still has flaws.
What I did find a useful approach and one that I have used in a few favourite local areas is to report issues to the appropriate Parish Council who often have a footpath officer. I have found that the ROW Department takes a lot more immediate notice when the issues are raised by a Parish Council  O0

Again just because I hold different views doesn't make me some sort of landowner "lovey"
So your not Sarah Slade in disguise?  ;)


shortwalker

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 320
Re: LANDRAGE; The good, the bad and the ugly.
« Reply #25 on: 14:35:51, 25/03/21 »
Obviously, I can't be Sarah Slade as I have no idea who she is.  :P
Let your soul and spirit fly Into the mystic.

Van Morrison

ninthace

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7961
Re: LANDRAGE; The good, the bad and the ugly.
« Reply #26 on: 14:48:07, 25/03/21 »
My experiences on reporting vary and obviously it is different from authority to authority.  I reported overgrowth on the SWCP and got a very courteous reply thanking me and explaining how they kept the path clear of vegetation.  The last complaint to the LA at least yielded an acknowledgement and a case number.  I suspect the more different folk that report a problem and the higher the "importance" of the path the more likely something will be happen.

In a different but related matter, round here there are several signposted ROWs that seem to go nowhere anyone would want to go, either now or in the past - all a bit odd really.  I have no idea what state they are in because I don't want to go down them either.
Solvitur Ambulando

barewirewalker

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3663
Re: LANDRAGE; The good, the bad and the ugly.
« Reply #27 on: 16:00:43, 25/03/21 »
Obviously, I can't be Sarah Slade as I have no idea who she is.  :P
Why is your tongue hanging out, she would no doubt be on here cheering you on, because the deeper meanings in many of my posts, which are there for others to find out so that I might get some greater understanding myself, are being obscured by a one-way argument?


Sarah Slade is the professional adviser on access matters for the CLA, she is both a lawyer and landowner and took over the post around 2010. Around this time a lot of de facto paths and popular access areas not recognised by the definitive map got closed or restricted. I was on a LAF at the time and had also got access to many inner CLA publications.


I had discovered a few articles on access written by her predecessor. A near admission to knowledge of the Corruption of the Definitive  Map kept cropping up in his article and after much thought, the penny has dropped that he was probably from a land agent background. During a LAF meeting where some of the lost de facto access was been justified by an active CLA member, I muttered under my breath, "Right out of the gospel according to Sarah Slade". I was sitting next to a British Horse Society office holder, he whispered to me, "How right you are, now she is really anti-access, I sit on the Stepping Forward committee and other national bodies with her".


Around 2011 Harry Cotterell was vice-chairman of the CLA and I had a chance to read the Monthly Land & Business, he wrote words to the effect, "if we are to reach an understanding with the user groups we are going to have to give more access than we can take away". I recognised them as verbatim from the earlier article and advice given out by the previous access expert. I won't go into the reasons why I think that a land agent might have a corporate guilty conscience on behalf of the CLA, to some it might be obvious and I have tried to draw attention to it in many different instances.
When the 2012 access policy came out under the banner headline of 'A Common Sense Approach' such sentiment had disappeared and all traces vanished from other articles on the subject (Harry Cotterrell was then President of the CLA). More impending doom was spread about the harmful effects of access legally, cost of third party insurance and of course the hardy perennial of criminal damage, etc.

You ought to lookup Garnon's (his family estate)on a map, it certainly not in an area that is pro access. about 10 west of Hereford and just north of Bridge Solars on the River Wye. Can you find historic and current access problems there? HC obviously thinks there are none that he should have advised his members about.
« Last Edit: 16:13:16, 25/03/21 by barewirewalker »
BWW
Their Land is in Our Country.

BuzyG

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2285
Re: LANDRAGE; The good, the bad and the ugly.
« Reply #28 on: 16:31:08, 25/03/21 »
Happy to report that Land rage is not a term I can relate to.  :)


Perhaps by nature some of us are less confrontational than others. ;)

pauldawes

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1525
Re: LANDRAGE; The good, the bad and the ugly.
« Reply #29 on: 17:29:18, 25/03/21 »
Happy to report that Land rage is not a term I can relate to.  :)


Perhaps by nature some of us are less confrontational than others. ;)


😂 😂 😂 (Just read one of your contributions to “idiots everywhere” thread, chuckling to myself, thinking “at least once you had spark of confrontation in you”.)