Author Topic: LANDRAGE; The good, the bad and the ugly.  (Read 2729 times)

shortwalker

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Re: LANDRAGE; The good, the bad and the ugly.
« Reply #90 on: 16:29:23, 28/03/21 »
People will respond differently and I know my views on the issue of access have changed over the years. This is a product of what I have seen, heard and read both first and second hand. I never suspected when I started walking seriously that I would become so interested in the "politics" of access, but this is where I have now often found myself, and is really the main focus of my posts on this forum in recent times.
So has that interest translated into actually doing anything as ninthace asks beyond debating the issue?
The answer is that I think it has and I will offer a few examples:
1.I joined the Ramblers to support their campaigns on such issues in particular
2. I actively engaged in the Ramblers Don't Lose Your Way campaign completing almost two hundred map squares but unfortunately despite their requests I didn't have sufficient time to act as one of the campaign's reviewers or join the next stage of researching lost ways
3. I have undertaken ROW reviews for some local parish councils
4. I have been working with one parish council to address a problem deadend footpath in the hope that an extension can be negotiated in return for re-routing the cross field route to the headlands. Despite a very contentious situation a meeting with a hitherto notoriously uncooperative landowner has been arranged after various failed approaches in the past
5. I have been researching a number of potential lost ways in one village which has involved considerable examination of historical source documents and other sources including interviewing senior members of the village to gain user testimony. One of these routes after three years of work is I hope going to yield a formal applications in the not too distant future


I could go on....so it may be the case that many on here that argue the issue are doing something more, and just as likely that many who say nothing are even more active in this respect. Who knows?


Well done for all that you are doing. I must confess apart from clearing some footpaths as I walk them, I haven't really done much else of late. In part because I haven't really found any issues


In my youth, (when I lived in Suffolk) I did take part in some protests (that may or may not have lead to cows accessing some of the greens)  when the local golf club wanted to restrict our access to common land.
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WhitstableDave

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Re: LANDRAGE; The good, the bad and the ugly.
« Reply #91 on: 16:38:34, 28/03/21 »

...I actively engaged in the Ramblers Don't Lose Your Way campaign completing almost two hundred map squares...

I could go on....so it may be the case that many on here that argue the issue are doing something more, and just as likely that many who say nothing are even more active in this respect. Who knows?

I think sometimes more can be less...

I completed some squares for the Ramblers' campaign, but only where I could apply my local knowledge usefully. So after carefully studying the (still available) area that I know extremely well, I marked three or four routes that would prove useful in getting from A to B and/or have some aesthetic value.

When I later saw the results for my area, I was horrified to see that other people had simply copied every single 'lost way' there was, making a mockery of the whole exercise. Routes that went through housing estates (as in, through houses, gardens and shops!), along roads (where pavements already exist), or routes that served no purpose whatsoever. It didn't seem to occur to some people that a computer could easily have achieved a similar result in a split second!

Of course, it may be that you have excellent knowledge of each of the 200 map squares you completed and made an extremely valuable contribution... in which case I apologise profusely for implying that you were part of the problem...  :-[

Incidentally, I don't know if I'm more or less active than others in working on behalf of walkers. By contacting the Kent authorities, I've had some success getting misleading signs removed from gates, and I've succeeded in having finger posts and waymarkers installed (and reinstalled where they've been removed again!). But I've failed in other cases where my requests for action have been ignored for years and where I've been as far as involving the ombudsman before admitting defeat.  :(

archaeoroutes

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Re: LANDRAGE; The good, the bad and the ugly.
« Reply #92 on: 17:03:35, 28/03/21 »
When I later saw the results for my area, I was horrified to see that other people had simply copied every single 'lost way' there was, making a mockery of the whole exercise. Routes that went through housing estates (as in, through houses, gardens and shops!), along roads (where pavements already exist), or routes that served no purpose whatsoever. It didn't seem to occur to some people that a computer could easily have achieved a similar result in a split second!


Then they were following the specific instructions given with the task. The project wanted a full map of every lost way. At that stage it wanted to be able to say how many miles had been lost in total - a useful piece of data for negotiations when they come to the later stages. They had run it through a computer, which did flag some but not all.
They will be looking for suitable routes to target for bids for reinstatement, not all of them - as you said many of the ones I saw were under motorways, houses, lakes, or quarried away, and others are dead ends or already have more recent alternatives just the other side of the field.
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richardh1905

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Re: LANDRAGE; The good, the bad and the ugly.
« Reply #93 on: 17:08:38, 28/03/21 »

Then they were following the specific instructions given with the task. The project wanted a full map of every lost way. At that stage it wanted to be able to say how many miles had been lost in total - a useful piece of data for negotiations when they come to the later stages. They had run it through a computer, which did flag some but not all.
They will be looking for suitable routes to target for bids for reinstatement, not all of them - as you said many of the ones I saw were under motorways, houses, lakes, or quarried away, and others are dead ends or already have more recent alternatives just the other side of the field.


Indeed - that was my interpretation, and I tried to rigorously follow their instructions without applying any local knowledge, personal preferences or personal interpretations. All part of the data gathering process.


That being said, if I saw an old footpath marked through someone's lounge, or across the bed of what is now a reservoir, I would hesitate to include it!
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WhitstableDave

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Re: LANDRAGE; The good, the bad and the ugly.
« Reply #94 on: 17:33:56, 28/03/21 »
It would seem that I misunderstood what the task involved. I didn't need to use my local knowledge at all!  :(

I'm still confused though. Was this process I should have used?...

Repeat
1. Identify route on historical map.
2. If route is a PRoW on OS map then 1.
3. Else draw route on OS map.
Until I've had enough.

Andies

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Re: LANDRAGE; The good, the bad and the ugly.
« Reply #95 on: 17:41:38, 28/03/21 »

I think sometimes more can be less...
I completed some squares for the Ramblers' campaign, but only where I could apply my local knowledge usefully. So after carefully studying the (still available) area that I know extremely well, I marked three or four routes that would prove useful in getting from A to B and/or have some aesthetic value.
When I later saw the results for my area, I was horrified to see that other people had simply copied every single 'lost way' there was, making a mockery of the whole exercise. Routes that went through housing estates (as in, through houses, gardens and shops!), along roads (where pavements already exist), or routes that served no purpose whatsoever. It didn't seem to occur to some people that a computer could easily have achieved a similar result in a split second!
Of course, it may be that you have excellent knowledge of each of the 200 map squares you completed and made an extremely valuable contribution... in which case I apologise profusely for implying that you were part of the problem...  :-[
Incidentally, I don't know if I'm more or less active than others in working on behalf of walkers. By contacting the Kent authorities, I've had some success getting misleading signs removed from gates, and I've succeeded in having finger posts and waymarkers installed (and reinstalled where they've been removed again!). But I've failed in other cases where my requests for action have been ignored for years and where I've been as far as involving the ombudsman before admitting defeat.  :(

I have to confess that almost two hundred squares of the map was rather more than I intended WD but like you I did only complete those local areas that I considered I had a knowledge of,  and I think I got involved right at the start of the campaign. Obviously some areas more than others but I have for many years enjoyed getting around the local area a bit rather than just the same old walks.
I may have been guilty of marking some routes up that will never make it any further now,  as I took the instructions as suggesting this was the approach the Ramblers wanted. That is everything that was on those two old maps. As I understood it the plan was that these potential routes would then be considered at this later stage with the intention that the useful and sensible routes would be prioritized for subsequent research. Consequently the map with 49,000 miles thereon is just a starting point and includes the type of anomalies you refer to. In all honesty I think it's going to be very hard work to get even a small fraction of those routes onto the definitive map, if my own experiences of research is anything to go by.
Good to hear you're reporting the issues you find. Totally concur about the signage and other issues. I have reported hundreds of issues over the years with mixed results. Sometimes I felt encouraged, other times I have become a bit disheartened when nothing happens. Even tackled the Local Access Forum once, but it was a waste of time. That said there have been many times that the ROW Department have done a great job, in often difficult circumstances, and with limited resources.


Well done for all that you are doing. I must confess apart from clearing some footpaths as I walk them, I haven't really done much else of late. In part because I haven't really found any issues
In my youth, (when I lived in Suffolk) I did take part in some protests (that may or may not have lead to cows accessing some of the greens)  when the local golf club wanted to restrict our access to common land.
Thanks shortwalker. I always hope I won't encounter issues as I really just want a pleasant walk, but things seem to have got more problematic in the last few years. I think it's a lack of funding at the ROW Department that doesn't help.

« Last Edit: 17:46:02, 28/03/21 by Andies »

ninthace

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Re: LANDRAGE; The good, the bad and the ugly.
« Reply #96 on: 17:50:10, 28/03/21 »
It would seem that I misunderstood what the task involved. I didn't need to use my local knowledge at all!  :(

I'm still confused though. Was this process I should have used?...

Repeat
1. Identify route on historical map.
2. If route is a PRoW on OS map then 1.
3. Else draw route on OS map.
Until I've had enough.


Something like that Dave.  I started local and spiralled out until I had done Devon from Dartmoor to the north coast plus chunks of Somerset and Cornwall.  By the time I had done that there weren't any squares left in the SW so I moved on to anywhere that had squares that needed doing.  Had no idea where I was half the time.  No question of using local knowledge, I am not that well travelled!

I was surprised to turn up the odd lost road, never mind path
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richardh1905

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Re: LANDRAGE; The good, the bad and the ugly.
« Reply #97 on: 21:25:52, 28/03/21 »
It would seem that I misunderstood what the task involved. I didn't need to use my local knowledge at all!  :(

I'm still confused though. Was this process I should have used?...

Repeat
1. Identify route on historical map.
2. If route is a PRoW on OS map then 1.
3. Else draw route on OS map.
Until I've had enough.


Yup, that's it.
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