Author Topic: Landrage follow up - I fought the law and....  (Read 1486 times)

barewirewalker

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Re: Landrage follow up - I fought the law and....
« Reply #15 on: 17:26:48, 31/03/21 »
I think you might have to read near 500 pages of Marion Shoard's; This Land is our Land to get the full effect of a 1000 years of refining the character of the British Landowner. Not that I hold with much of her underlying philosophies but it is meticulous research. Where it does resonate with me is through the Characters of two very different landowning families I grew up with and spent the first 17 years of my working life. Then to find the landowner representation on my counties LAF, later GOLG, acting true to character confirmed my feelings.

How a public representative of a professional body could write the nonsense in the CLA's 2012 Policy and live in the Mansell Lacy black hole is beyond me. I have provided enough references to it over the years for it to be engrained in understanding. The ramblers missed a huge opportunity by not holding the author and editor in chief up to public ridicule because nearly everything that is wrong with this country's access network is within the 11 square miles where he lives.

Obvious corruption of the Definitive Map.
Clear examples of Sarah Slade's predecessors writing that more access should be allowed than taken away.
Enclosed historical and geographical features that merit public access.
I think there could be many more examples of Shoard's reasons for the theft of the countryside could be ticked but there seems little point.

But it is clear to me if the freehold meant a sympathetic occupation of the countryside there would be no need for a Land Reform Act.


 
BWW
Their Land is in Our Country.

ninthace

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Re: Landrage follow up - I fought the law and....
« Reply #16 on: 17:32:59, 31/03/21 »
Please reread my last post BWW.  Your reply, while interesting, does not come close to answering any of the questions I asked and just reiterates past grievances. 


Are you sure you were not a politician in a previous life?  ;)
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barewirewalker

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Re: Landrage follow up - I fought the law and....
« Reply #17 on: 17:53:37, 31/03/21 »
Of course, there is more to it they just do not they do not want to give up control of their land, for centuries the landowner has been the main employer in the countryside, had social status independent of wealth and civil power and an automatic authority.

They have failed since 1912 to come up with any other strategies to replaces those they have inherited when they formed a collective to fight the threat of Land Tax. At least the NFU was formed to take on the Guild of Master Butchers ringing markets to hold down meat prices.

Never stood for public office too busy trying to survive making living, when I realised I would have a far happier life by getting out from under two landowners I wouldn't trust one iota.
BWW
Their Land is in Our Country.

ninthace

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Re: Landrage follow up - I fought the law and....
« Reply #18 on: 18:03:59, 31/03/21 »
Sorry I still don't think you answered any of the questions I asked.  It set off well but went back to the past sins of landwners again.  A lot of land is now owned by individuals, corporations and agri-businesses that have to answer to their creditors and shareholders and are more interested in balance sheets than lineage.
Solvitur Ambulando

pauldawes

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Re: Landrage follow up - I fought the law and....
« Reply #19 on: 18:11:25, 31/03/21 »
Please reread my last post BWW.  Your reply, while interesting, does not come close to answering any of the questions I asked and just reiterates past grievances. 


Are you sure you were not a politician in a previous life?  ;)


I think the basic problem has come out in similar threads in the past: although there are clear gains to society as a whole from better access those gains are often  ones not valued by the landowner.


Imagine a large farm bordering a village. Better access rights to do walks through the farm land may well:-


A/ Encourage more walkers from far afield, benefitting the health and fitness and happiness of those walkers.


B/ Provide safer routes for the villagers themselves...they may be better able to avoid busy roads.


C/ Bring more wealth into the local community via increased trade in pubs and shops and parking charges.


But many a landowner will look at those benefits and say “None of that benefits me, and I like my privacy”.


Part of the long term solution is obviously to withhold public grants (from which many a farmer benefits) for those farmers who don’t show any inclination to share their good fortune to a reasonable degree.

ninthace

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Re: Landrage follow up - I fought the law and....
« Reply #20 on: 18:22:12, 31/03/21 »
I agree with your analysis Paul but I think there is more to it than privacy and this is what I am trying to tease out of BWW as a student of the CLA.  Many landowners do not even live on the land in question.  Many landowners are organisations rather than single individuals.  Given the benefits, why are the CLA so apparently opposed and why have they become more entrenched under their current management?
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pauldawes

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Re: Landrage follow up - I fought the law and....
« Reply #21 on: 18:33:56, 31/03/21 »
I agree with your analysis Paul but I think there is more to it than privacy and this is what I am trying to tease out of BWW as a student of the CLA.  Many landowners do not even live on the land in question.  Many landowners are organisations rather than single individuals.  Given the benefits, why are the CLA so apparently opposed and why have they become more entrenched under their current management?


I’m pretty sure you’re right to say there are other reasons apart “privacy”...but based on few landowners I’ve known I wouldn’t be surprised if the “mine, all mine” mentality was biggest single factor.


Other factors that might well discourage landowners from granting freer access:-


1/ Costs of clearing up after litter louts.

2/ Slight impact on sale value (after all at least some prospective buyers will value “privacy” so fewer potential  bidders maybe to drive up price)

3/ Fear that granting better access will be irreversible if landowner wants to restrict access again in future.

4/ Potential damage to nature reserves and crops from inconsiderate walkers


5/ Limiting some ways of managing the land/ gaining income from it. (e.g. constant public access might make it more difficult to rent out shooting rights. Making access easier for public, might also benefit poachers.)



« Last Edit: 18:39:10, 31/03/21 by pauldawes »

barewirewalker

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Re: Landrage follow up - I fought the law and....
« Reply #22 on: 18:34:43, 31/03/21 »
 :-\ Now not sure I know what I was supposed to be answering.

Yet the last time I had access to CLA info the officeholders were not big business leaders, yet I have no doubt the larger ones are on many boards of directors. When I was able to follow the inner circle, it was able to link many estates to names, who could clearly offer improvements to the countries access. One name comes to mind Mrs Calander Beckett, has the largest of The Cheshire/Shropshire Meres within her land, this could be historically important because of the connection with Lord Combermere, one of Wellington's Generals, yet look at the map. Just because the land was landscaped with scenic drives does not mean that they were not used as footpaths for locals to pass through the estate or conduct business with estate.

I think one of the prime reasons is loss of face. An admission that many lostways should be on our map is clearly due to the influence of the landed gentry and their agents through public office is bad for an organization that is trying to build a grassroots membership. Necessary since the loss of veto in the House of Lords with the loss of many hereditary landowner peers.

Many hereditary landowners run businesses that have no need to build up capital, they can afford the time to sit on local government committees, attend CLA and NFU committees and build up a lot of local influence and manipulative power. Guilt by association is a strong influence.
BWW
Their Land is in Our Country.

shortwalker

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Re: Landrage follow up - I fought the law and....
« Reply #23 on: 18:42:36, 31/03/21 »

I think the basic problem has come out in similar threads in the past: although there are clear gains to society as a whole from better access those gains are often  ones not valued by the landowner.


Imagine a large farm bordering a village. Better access rights to do walks through the farm land may well:-


A/ Encourage more walkers from far afield, benefitting the health and fitness and happiness of those walkers.


B/ Provide safer routes for the villagers themselves...they may be better able to avoid busy roads.


C/ Bring more wealth into the local community via increased trade in pubs and shops and parking charges.


But many a landowner will look at those benefits and say “None of that benefits me, and I like my privacy”.


Part of the long-term solution is obviously to withhold public grants (from which many a farmer benefits) for those farmers who don’t show any inclination to share their good fortune to a reasonable degree.


Why should grants be withheld if the farmer doesn't agree with some arbitrary figure. Because that is what it would end up being. Some far-off bureaucrat would decide that all farms must allow x percentage of public access.


It is not just a question of privacy, it is often more complicated than that (despite what BWW would have you believe.)


A lot of you talk about more access, but there are footpaths near me that are hardly used. I walked part of the Bradford Millenium way last year (the part that actually goes through my village, so not out of the way) I spent a good half hour clearing brambles etc.  Several others I have walked are clearly not walked that often.




As an example do people seriously believe that people are going to come in their thousands to walk to the Salt & Pepper pot at Cowling when 40 minutes down the road you have Malham Tarn?


Do you know what, I use a lot of the roads near me without coming across many vehicles?


Several of the villages near me don't have a car park to even charge visitors. Those that do often have problems with people just parking up so they don't have to pay.


So whilst your sentiments may be nice the reality is a little bit different.
Let your soul and spirit fly Into the mystic.

Van Morrison

barewirewalker

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Re: Landrage follow up - I fought the law and....
« Reply #24 on: 18:58:28, 31/03/21 »
One little aside to the shooting comment. Many good shoots work quite satisfactorily with PRoW, yet those without will maintain that it is necessary to have no access for bird rearing. Yet all shoots apart from a few rough shoots nowadays rely heavily on the pheasant and partridge rearing farms, few employ a full-time keeper. In the days when wild birds were the mainstay, a head keeper was supported by a staff of underkeepers.

Allowing access and misbehaviour should not be merged, the majority denied access are behaviour compliant and even prepared to bear witness to criminality. At a time when rural-crime is claimed to be on the rise, the landowners are at their most vehement in allowing the greatest source of witnesses to be kept out.
BWW
Their Land is in Our Country.

pauldawes

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Re: Landrage follow up - I fought the law and....
« Reply #25 on: 19:01:50, 31/03/21 »

Why should grants be withheld if the farmer doesn't agree with some arbitrary figure. Because that is what it would end up being. Some far-off bureaucrat would decide that all farms must allow x percentage of public access.


It is not just a question of privacy, it is often more complicated than that (despite what BWW would have you believe.)





I can think of a dozen other methods (other than a distant bureaucrat setting a percentage target) so not sure why you are so confident that strange method would be selected.


And I do realise there are relevant factors other than privacy. I actually listed 5 other potential factors in a subsequent post!

ninthace

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Re: Landrage follow up - I fought the law and....
« Reply #26 on: 19:31:02, 31/03/21 »
:-\ Now not sure I know what I was supposed to be answering.
.
Sorry I am not sure I can be clearer.  In your own words, why do you think the CLA, as an organisation, opposes more rights of way and access reform? 

Supplementary question, how and why has this policy changed under the current management?

Please:
Don't refer to the corruption of the Definitive Map - while it may be a cause of the present situation, it not a credible reason for continued opposition by CLA and would not be offered in print.
Don't offer loss of face as a reason - it may be true but "we would look stupid" is not credible amd would also never appear in print.
Don't say the "because they are all toffs!" because they aren't and it would never be offered as a reason even if it were true.

The reason I am asking is twofold.  Firstly in your posts as far as I can recall, while condeming the CLA's policy you have not explained fully the reasons behind it.  Secondly, to take the debate forward, we need to know why those who oppose access reform feel the way they do so we can better understand their position and try to change it as and when we meet them..
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barewirewalker

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Re: Landrage follow up - I fought the law and....
« Reply #27 on: 19:42:38, 31/03/21 »
In your own words, why do you think the CLA, as an organisation, opposes more rights of way and access reform? 
Because it has been their historical position and as the division of purpose between the 2 lobby groups they feel it is the strongest policy point to win membership support.

Supplementary question, how and why has this policy changed under the current management

The previous policy advisor admitted to a weakness in their case for the above, the current as a hardline lawyer thinks they will be better to avoid any compromise.
BWW
Their Land is in Our Country.

pdstsp

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Re: Landrage follow up - I fought the law and....
« Reply #28 on: 20:02:31, 31/03/21 »
My experience coincides with pauldawes in that the overriding policy is "mine all mine".  Certainly one of our local large hereditary landowners is fairly open about this.


Not sure what SW's point is.  The fact that there are underused PROWs is hardly a reason not to try to improve the access network, indeed maybe they would be more used if they had more point - which was the purpose of my OP - lets open something out, create a decent distance walk linking four urban centres and see if there is demand.

barewirewalker

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Re: Landrage follow up - I fought the law and....
« Reply #29 on: 20:17:09, 31/03/21 »
My experience coincides with pauldawes in that the overriding policy is "mine all mine".  Certainly one of our local large hereditary landowners is fairly open about this.

Is this not the root cause that is embedded by both historical profiling of landowners policy and the current reason to pursue policies based on those emotions.

Not sure what SW's point is.  The fact that there are underused PROWs is hardly a reason not to try to improve the access network, indeed maybe they would be more used if they had more point - which was the purpose of my OP - lets open something out, create a decent distance walk linking four urban centres and see if there is demand.

Underused paths are recognised in law. Our network has developed from a model base on access in 1949. The population of this country has increased, somewhat. Shot subsequent changes in understanding about our environment such as field margins, safety laws etc be recognise to incorporate these old ways rather than throw them away.
BWW
Their Land is in Our Country.