The Layering Principle

[glovepuppet]

Most of us, I'm sure, have heard of the idea of layering clothing for walking - the idea being that it is much easier to adjust the layers to get the right combination of warmth/waterproofing for the current conditions. I'm sure most of us practice this as well.
 
But I was wondering what people felt about this. Bearing in mind it is now heading for winter but occasionally still warm, it is quite a test for layering and/or breathability. So I was wondering a few things:
 
Do you go for wool or synthetic base layers, close fitting or T shirt, long or short sleeve?
 
Do you go for a thinner or thicker mid (or insulating) layer, and is it fleece or softshell? Do you want it hooded?
 
What sort of outer shell do you wear? And would you expect it to have any insulating properties as well as waterproofing? Presumably you want a hood? And if it was cool but not raining, would you normally expect to wear your waterproof layer?
 
Would you carry a 4th layer (perhaps an insulating layer) so you carried, say, a baselayer, 2 mid layers (one thick, one thin) plus a waterproof shell and mixed 3 from the 4 (or even use all 4 if it's really cold and wet)?
 
Lots and lots of questions, I know, but I was interested to hear what folks like and/or use, not so much in terms of the actual quality of the stuff (if charity shop stuff suits, that's fine) but more how you apply the principles.
 
Thought it might make an interesting topic of discussion.
 
Cheers
 
GP 

[Willowisp]

Depends on weather on the day for me.


Base - Often long sleeved merino wool or if its really cold I prefer Helly henson Lifa
Mid - I have a Marmot thin polar tech power dry top
Shell - dependant on temp. Warmer them OMM Kemeleica, Colder Paramo Cascada Jacket.


In my bag I almost always carry an OMM Down Gillet which is fantastic if the temp really drops


For trousers I have a set of Marmot full side zipped over trousers that mostly sit in my bag but in the winter in filthy weather or snow I have Paramao Cascada trousers.


I find normal gear works for most of the year in the UK but when it gets really nasty add the Paramo and the Down Gillet and I am happy as larry

[alewife]

Synthetic base layer and then I only ever carry layers that I could wear all at the same time if necessary - so mid layer long sleeve fleece or a slightly thinner synthetic thing, plus a thicker fleece jacket and a waterproof. So I could end up with 4 layers.


I judge which particular midlayer/waterproof to carry on the day.



If it's raining when I go out I put on waterproof trousers, and a brimmed rain hat - plus both waterproofs have a hood. If not I carry over trousers.


I always have a wooly hat and fleece gloves in a dry bag in my pack - its surprising how comforting it can be to pull on a nice dry cosy hat when you are feeling a bit tired and windswept and fed up at the end of a long day.

[Willowisp]

Oh yes a nice hat indeed. Or I have 2 buffs which I occasionally use instead as they are a little more versatile.

[Morte66]

Most of us, I'm sure, have heard of the idea of layering clothing for walking - the idea being that it is much easier to adjust the layers to get the right combination of warmth/waterproofing for the current conditions. I'm sure most of us practice this as well.
 
But I was wondering what people felt about this. Bearing in mind it is now heading for winter but occasionally still warm, it is quite a test for layering and/or breathability.

I'm new to all this, only been at it since August, up to the last few days my main reaction to gear has been "Why is it so bloody hot?" with a side of "I thought the layering system meant I could have waterproofing without heat" and another side of "it's bloody hard to get the insulation right".

It's way better than everything else I've tried but still not working as I'd like.

Do you go for wool or synthetic base layers, close fitting or T shirt, long or short sleeve?

Short sleeve wicking tees for the daily walk to work (4.2 miles each way).

Rab Aeon LS baselayer, a very thing synthetic baselayer that works superbly, for weekend jaunts. I went for LS so I could wear it under a raw shell, which might irritate my fussy skin, and because my arms are usually my coldest part when I get cold so short sleeve is exactly wrong in those conditions.

Insulated baselayers are no good to me during the week since they'd be too hot in the office. I need the insulation to be in the layers I remove and hang on the coat rack. I might get MeCo baselayer for weekends in the winter.
 

Do you go for a thinner or thicker mid (or insulating) layer, and is it fleece or softshell?

ATM a 100gsm microfleece. I first wore it this week, when it got cold in tee plus shirt plus shell, and it was too warm... I need a 50GSM fleece or some such. I tried a thin lambswool sweater, which seems like a 75gsm fleece, so I think I might pop put for an extra-thin acrylic sweater tomorrow. It's remarkably hard to get this right. I find it best to feel ever so slightly cold, so I won't sweat and get dehydration/windchill, but I'll be motivated to keep walking.

I might need something warmer when winter kicks in. I could wear sweater plus microfleece, I guess. If that's not enough, I expect I'll get a 200gsm fleece or some sort of lofted midlayer.

Do you want it hooded?

I don't want it hooded, but I might be forced to that. My head is my hottest part, hoods prevent ventilation when I want it. They're also crap at keeping rain off glasses.

So I'd rather use a hat or an umbrella. But umbrellas need hands and are restricted by wind.

Almost all waterproof hats are (a) inherently insulated when they should work on a layer system (rain hat   beanie or whatever), (b) no good a coping with sweat, and (c) not made in XXL.
 

What sort of outer shell do you wear? And would you expect it to have any insulating properties as well as waterproofing? Presumably you want a hood? And if it was cool but not raining, would you normally expect to wear your waterproof layer?

I wear a goretex winter shell, bought because it was cheap, which was a mistake (but becoming less so). It has a nylon lining and fleece lined collar and I loathe them. I think they're daft, taking a garment that could be used all year and making it deep-winter only.

For hood, see above. If there has to be a hood then the hard shell is the best place for it.
 
I'd wear the waterproof shell in dry weather if I needed the windproofing, since I don't carry a separate windproof.

Would you carry a 4th layer (perhaps an insulating layer) so you carried, say, a baselayer, 2 mid layers (one thick, one thin) plus a waterproof shell and mixed 3 from the 4 (or even use all 4 if it's really cold and wet)?

Yep, I'd do that.
 

Lots and lots of questions, I know, but I was interested to hear what folks like and/or use, not so much in terms of the actual quality of the stuff (if charity shop stuff suits, that's fine) but more how you apply the principles.

I'm pretty happy with the layering principle in principle. I wish it worked better sometimes, e.g "breathable" shells could be about five times as breathable.

And I really wish it applied to things other than jackets. Try getting a pair of waterproof/breathable but completely uninsulated shell gloves, that can be work with cool wicking liners (Rab Powerdry) or insulated (Rab MeCo). Or an uninsulated waterproof/breathable hat with good detachable wicking sweatband, that can be swapped for a beanie liner in cold weather. You haven't got a hope.

[Al plus boots]

I wear an Icebreaker base layer.


In summer their merino wool Tech T and boxers.


In winter - long sleeved top and leggings (if it is really cold).


Mid-layer - fleece, either North Face, Berghaus or Montane - depending on the weather and where I will be walking.


I also have a soft shell in my rucksack in winter.


My waterproof jacket and over trousers are always in my rucksack (just in case).


Summer - I have a Mountain Equipment baseball cap (Goretex).


Winter - an Icebreaker beanie.


A buff is always handy and I have one of those in my sack too.

[Natureboy12689]

I try and keep it simple and generally wear my helly base layer and then my Rab photon jacket.  If I get too cold I always carry a couple of extra fleeces with me to add under my jacket and then if it's raining I stick on my waterproof and take off my Rab jacket. 
 
Legs wise I don't really wear trousers (I wear shorts instead, not nothing before anybody comments  )  much so my legs are used to the cold now but I have a choice of waterproof trousers, some really thick toastie sailing salopettes, some thinner salopettes or a pair of thin north face waterproof trousers which are actually not that bad and fold up into the pocket (found that out a few weeks ago after owning them all this year!!)
 
I don't have the money to spend on expensive kit and all of my fleeces have either been given to me through work or found on walks or crags and then obviously washed thouroughly.

[happyhiker]

I suffer from perspiration - ok, I sweat like a pig!

With that in mind, I have to go for layering. I wear a synthetic short sleeved  'T' shirt always. I find anti-perspirant helps avoiding sweaty smells. I carry two 100gsm synthetic sweaters in my bag in cold weather and one in warm. I also usually have a 200gsm or 300gsm fleece depending on temperature. My fleeces are not windproof as I want maximum breathability and rely on my Paclite shell if I need protection from wind (well it is useless against rain!). Most of the time even in quite cold weather on steep ascents, I only wear the 'T' shirt and put more on at the summit.

[Fleegle]

An interesting array of replies.
 
Myself, depending on the weather at the time and the forecast for the period i'm out and about, along with where I'm going, how remote it is etc, I will generally start with the synthetic base, followed by a wicking mid layer and fleece as required.
 
If its really cold, then I'll have a merino base followed by the remainder of the afore mentioned items.
 
As for trousers, generally my Craghopper stretch pants will suffice, with the back up of my Berghaus waterproof trousers if I need that extra wind break.
 
If its really cold and/or remote, a mountain climb etc, then my Salomon Salopettes instead of my Craghoper Stretch pants.
 
I keep a merino base layer in my pack as a back up or emergency layer, ideal if my base, merino or synthetic, is wet through sweat and I'm at risk of getting cold.
 
I also have a Montane Primaloft quilted jacket for extra thermal warmth. Also ideal after a good sweaty walk/climb, when I change out of my sweaty upper layers in to drier clothing for the trip home....   

[stroller52]

I don't have much gear so generally the following works for me:
Summer it will be wicking regatta tee shirt and carry North Face fleece and waterproof which is also windproof.  The latter I may put on at lunch break if there is a cool breeze - it is easier to get to and doesn't have the half zip of the fleece plus I can choose to leave the jacket open for ventilation.  If it is a cool summer day I may wear one of my two wicking long sleeved half zip shirts rather the the tee shirts.  For my legs it is the basic Mountain Lite trousers - they get wet but dry off so quickly.
 
Spring/Autumn pretty much the same but might wear a long sleeved shirt over a wicking base layer with fleece and waterproof in the pack.  If it is particularly cool I might wear the fleece from start.
 
Winter it will be full base layer - top and leggings - long sleeved shirt and waterproof from start.
 
The North Face waterproof doubles and wind proof jacket and my waterproof(!) overtrousers are always in my pack along with double gloves ie fleece inner pair and waterproof outer, beanie hat and buff all to be used as required.  The overtrousers have turned into a mistake - they have full length zips with a protective flap but this is on the inside and therefore leak badly.  However, they do keep me warm and because the normal trousers dry so quickly it is not too bad.
 
I generally expect to be hot and sweaty in summer, wet in heavy or consistent rain and cold in winter; generally my gear dries off quickly in summer and even though waterproofs eventually let water in if rain is bad enough they keep me warm in winter.
 
So no real scientific approach to layering just have what I can afford and make the best of it as conditions dictate.

[agentmancuso]

I usually wear a Paramo Mountain Pull-on base layer, with either a Rab softshell or a North Face windstopper gillet depending on how cold it is, and a Paramo alta jacket. Much of the time I just walk in the base layer plus buff, hat and thinsulate gloves, but I cool down quickly when I stop, so I'll put everything else on and then remove it bit by bit when I get going again.

In summer I wear a decade old Berghaus base layer, with a Paramo Fuera windproof and the Rab softshell as carried layers.

Trousers are Paramo too, either Cascada or Fuera depending on temperature.

Paramo stuff seems a bit like Marmite, and it isn't cheap, but it works for me, and it lasts for years too.

[altirando]

May I suggest that footwear has an influence on what we wear?  Someone wearing boots for instance will walk more slowly than someone in lightweight shoes, so they will wear more substantial clothing, perhaps even the 'Goretex walking jacket' that always seems to be advised in articles in the general media, although of course it is far too warm for anything but an amble in cold winter weather. Definitely not for a strenuous uphill walk. It was interesting to see that most of the personal outfits include trousers of one sort or another. When I started breeches were the universal hill walking wear. They may appear old fashioned now but they are much more functional than trousers that have loose cloth flapping round ankles and lower legs, drag against the knee when stepping up, and constrict the waist and stomach with an unrelenting waistband and belt. People started to wear things like Ronhill Tracksters, then suddenly everyone seemed to be in trousers.
For the record, on warm summer days I wear trail running shorts and a short sleeve zip T in synthetic - the thought of Merino wool against my skin makes me shudder - plus when appropriate a stretchy little Polartec top with a deep zip. I would normally be carrying an ultralight shell jacket and sometimes too shell leggings.  Not with boots of course. In winter it will be a choice of fleece tights, long sleeve thermal, usually soft shell jacket, extra warm gear in the pack.  Two questions then: where have all the breeches gone, and why am I not wearing the same gear as most of the rest of you?  Is there a deeply philosophical answer?

[angry climber]

Winter layering for myself usually this is for cold weather in Scotland at Munro height so it has to be warm.
 
Base layer either Icebreaker long sleeved merino wool top or Montane sport wool long sleeved zip neck top. Icebreaker long johns merino wool
 
Mid layer preferably Rab Vapour rise stretch top. Rab vapour rise trousers
 
Outer layer Montane superfly event jacket or Montane venture Jacket with either Montane Superfly or Montane venture trousers.
 
Warmth layer Mountain hardwear conduit jacket synthetic duvet or if really cold Montane extreme smock. These are only for stops they can be pulled on over your wet jacket and still add warmth. The extreme is really good for climbing as it stays open on belays for added warmth but not getting in the way of your harness. The zips down each side open out easily.
 
I don't like down warmth layers as its too damp in Scotland and when wet they do not add any warmth.   

[Fleegle]

May I suggest that footwear has an influence on what we wear?

A good point. But I wear my Scarpa SL's all year, summer or winter along with the same type of sock, which is a winter sock.
 
BTW, I do wash them after each use.....     

[agentmancuso]

... But I wear my Scarpa SL's all year, summer or winter along with the same type of sock, which is a winter sock...

I've done that for years too, until this summer when I bought a pair of lightweight fabric boots with a Goretex lining (still Scarpas, GTX or something like that?). They don't keep out the rain for all that long, but I have enjoyed wearing them all the same - the lighter weight does make a difference in fatigue. Easier to drive in too.